The Love and Loathing of Siblings

[Thorn Wilde]

I haven't spent Christmas with all my brothers (the biological/married in ones) in years. We're kind of spread to the four winds. I have two biological ones, one who lives here in Oslo and one who lives in Stockholm, and then they have a half brother who lives high up in the Swedish mountains. When I was a kid, we'd all spend Christmas together: My mum and dad and me, my dad's ex-wife and their two sons, and her son from after their marriage ended, whose dad fucked off when he was just a baby. As such, my dad was always his dad too, so I had no notion that we weren't blood relations until I was about 8. Before anyone asks, it wasn't awkward at all. There were never any hard feelings between my mother and my brothers' mother; my dad's first marriage happened because he knocked up his girlfriend, and they split up less than five years later, a decade before he even met my mum.

 

My brothers are all much older than me, which has probably contributed to us never having much trouble getting along. I never even lived with any of them, except that the eldest (who's 19 years my senior) lived with us for a couple of years, until I was about 3. They used to babysit me when I was a kid.

 

This year, my brother who lives in Oslo is spending Christmas with his girlfriend's family in Bergen, his mother is spending a quiet Christmas with her best friend who's ill, and the ones in Sweden are spending Christmas with their significant others' families. Magpie's working Christmas eve, so I'll be spending a quiet Christmas with my mum and her husband, and possibly my step-brother and his mother as well, we'll see. He's the only sibling I've ever had any sort of trouble with. Our parents got married when we were 14, and he had a hard time adjusting when we all moved in together. He's an only child, as is his father, so he's not used to having a big family or anything. We get along just fine now, though. He buggered off to Australia to go to university for three years and came home permanently this summer. It's only lately that he's actually felt like a brother to me and I have counted him as such. I'm accumulating a lot of brothers...

[JamesSavik]

Relatives: they aren't so bad when they're sober.

 

(credit KC Grim for picture- it said things more eloquently than I could have)

[Y_B]

There are lots of people out there who are assholes to their own family members and they aren't obligated to tolerate them just because they share their genes. People are generally expected to try harder/put up with their family members, but if there's clear mistreatment, why should they?

 .

Why would you be an asshole to your own family? Sounds like their problem and not yours, which still goes back to my first statement.

[Fishwings]

Why would you be an asshole to your own family? Sounds like their problem and not yours, which still goes back to my first statement.

 

What. Is this a circular argument or am I missing something

[Rndmrunner]

What is it that Harvey Fierstein says in Torch Song Trilogy, i will have to paraphrase but it goes something like this:

 

All i ask for is a little love and respect and anybody who can't give these things has no place in my life. 

 

 

I have always liked Harvey and TST is my own "It's a Wonderful [GAY] Life"

 

so surround your self with people you love and respect - they are your family and deserve your time and affection as do you theirs. 

Happy Christmas everyone

[Y_B]

What. Is this a circular argument or am I missing something

Maybe I wasn't being clear what I was trying to say. I was essentially referring to the fact that I don't understand many of the dysfunctional family dynamics I've seen around me. And I don't understand why people would mistreat their own family member so poorly to cause these angry separations. Unless there are obvious sociopaths, total assholes or something like that around, I guess I don't see what is so difficult about at least making peace, even if it's just for the sake of keeping peace.

 

I had a friend back in high school who had a sister I knew pretty well too. Totally dysfunctional family. The sister didn't speak with their parents not because they were sociopaths but because she didn't agree with some of their stuff and my friend didnt really talk to her sister either out of a personality difference. Both of them can give you dissertations on all the reason to justify them having essentially separated themselves from their family. It's ridiculous. I had a friend in college, he had this horrible resentment towards his dad who he thinks is a psycho for petty reasons but I've been around the guy and he's just like any other dad who has good intentions, maybe just slightly misplaced but not a bad person by any stretch. Things like that.

 

Again, this is just my belief but I value family and I value people who do the same and it's hugely disconcerting to me hearing people regard family as just any other flesh on bone on this earth or treat each other poorly.

[Fishwings]

Maybe I wasn't being clear what I was trying to say. I was essentially referring to the fact that I don't understand many of the dysfunctional family dynamics I've seen around me. And I don't understand why people would mistreat their own family member so poorly to cause these angry separations. Unless there are obvious sociopaths, total assholes or something like that around, I guess I don't see what is so difficult about at least making peace, even if it's just for the sake of keeping peace.

 

I had a friend back in high school who had a sister I knew pretty well too. Totally dysfunctional family. The sister didn't speak with their parents not because they were sociopaths but because she didn't agree with some of their stuff and my friend didnt really talk to her sister either out of a personality difference. Both of them can give you dissertations on all the reason to justify them having essentially separated themselves from their family. It's ridiculous. I had a friend in college, he had this horrible resentment towards his dad who he thinks is a psycho for petty reasons but I've been around the guy and he's just like any other dad who has good intentions, maybe just slightly misplaced but not a bad person by any stretch. Things like that.

 

Again, this is just my belief but I value family and I value people who do the same and it's hugely disconcerting to me hearing people regard family as just any other flesh on bone on this earth or treat each other poorly.

 

Different people place different value on family members. I think in general most people care more about family members but there are some people who don't place too much special emphasis. I read somewhere that the former is more evident in collectivist societies and the latter in individualists, but I can't recall.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Luc Rosen

[Fishwings]

that was not my intention at all.  All I was saying was that I - personally - would have rather had the choice than to have been excised.

 

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you've said :0

[Sasha Distan]

Maybe I wasn't being clear what I was trying to say. I was essentially referring to the fact that I don't understand many of the dysfunctional family dynamics I've seen around me. And I don't understand why people would mistreat their own family member so poorly to cause these angry separations. Unless there are obvious sociopaths, total assholes or something like that around, I guess I don't see what is so difficult about at least making peace, even if it's just for the sake of keeping peace.

 

I had a friend back in high school who had a sister I knew pretty well too. Totally dysfunctional family. The sister didn't speak with their parents not because they were sociopaths but because she didn't agree with some of their stuff and my friend didnt really talk to her sister either out of a personality difference. Both of them can give you dissertations on all the reason to justify them having essentially separated themselves from their family. It's ridiculous. I had a friend in college, he had this horrible resentment towards his dad who he thinks is a psycho for petty reasons but I've been around the guy and he's just like any other dad who has good intentions, maybe just slightly misplaced but not a bad person by any stretch. Things like that.

 

Again, this is just my belief but I value family and I value people who do the same and it's hugely disconcerting to me hearing people regard family as just any other flesh on bone on this earth or treat each other poorly.

 

My brother isn't a sociopath, he's just a dick who thinks he's always right and will belittle my life choices every chance he gets. By your reckoning, in order to be a decent human being i should make myself and my husband miserable and continue to forgive him in order to "keep the peace". my parents would agree with you.

I spent over 20 years always being the one who had to give in, even though i am a better person than he is. i was the one who always had to kowtow to what he (and thus my parents) wanted.

i'm an adult now, i found a new family. if refusing to acknowledge my blood-brother makes me a bad person, then that's another label i'll choose to ignore. no one can judge another's family. you're not there, you don't know.

 

As anyone who may have been adopted or had step-children/parents knows, blood can mean everything. it can also mean nothing at all. blood has nothing to do with how much you love a person, or how much you love them back.

[Thorn Wilde]

Maybe I wasn't being clear what I was trying to say. I was essentially referring to the fact that I don't understand many of the dysfunctional family dynamics I've seen around me. And I don't understand why people would mistreat their own family member so poorly to cause these angry separations. Unless there are obvious sociopaths, total assholes or something like that around, I guess I don't see what is so difficult about at least making peace, even if it's just for the sake of keeping peace.

 

I had a friend back in high school who had a sister I knew pretty well too. Totally dysfunctional family. The sister didn't speak with their parents not because they were sociopaths but because she didn't agree with some of their stuff and my friend didnt really talk to her sister either out of a personality difference. Both of them can give you dissertations on all the reason to justify them having essentially separated themselves from their family. It's ridiculous. I had a friend in college, he had this horrible resentment towards his dad who he thinks is a psycho for petty reasons but I've been around the guy and he's just like any other dad who has good intentions, maybe just slightly misplaced but not a bad person by any stretch. Things like that.

 

Again, this is just my belief but I value family and I value people who do the same and it's hugely disconcerting to me hearing people regard family as just any other flesh on bone on this earth or treat each other poorly.

 

I value family hugely. I just don't think that family is limited to blood relations, or that people are family just because they happen to be related to you. My brothers' brother is my brother. The fact that we're not related doesn't come into play. My step-dad's son is also my brother. I stopped thinking of him as my step-brother ages ago. And there are several people out there whom I consider my siblings who aren't even connected to my blood-family. 

 

I see all my cousins as family, but not necessarily their parents. On my mother's side, I'm good with all of them. On my father's side, however, I have an aunt who's extremely difficult to deal with, one uncle who's a massive, arrogant prick, and another uncle whom I don't even talk about for reasons which are nobody's business but my brothers' and mine. I don't care any more about these people than I would about any other acquaintance. 

 

I would like to add, regarding your friend from college and his dad, that if you think you could tell what his father was like from meeting him and talking to him a few times, you are really quite misguided. I find the idea that you would somehow know him better than your friend who's known him his entire life more than a little bit arrogant, or perhaps just naïve. Either way, you are clearly speaking from a position of privilege here. I'm glad that you have never felt that your blood relations were anything less than family, and I think it's great that you value them as highly as you do, but you'd do well to remember that not everyone is you. Many of us have far more complicated families, and some of us have blood relations who have hurt us or people we care about in one way or another.

 

Lastly, I take issue with your use of the term 'obvious sociopaths'. There is no such thing. The mark of a sociopath is that he or she is able to manipulate the people around them so masterfully that no one else would be able to see that something was wrong. 

[Kitt]

 If you haven't talked to someone in over years, there's something seriously wrong with you, 

 

Then I guess there is something wrong with me - because I have decided that I will no longer tollerate one individual putting me down in front of a room full of people. 

Why would you be an asshole to your own family? Sounds like their problem and not yours, which still goes back to my first statement.

It becomes your problem when you are the target of an opinionated ass who feels no remorse in making you feel like shit in front of 20 holiday guests.

 

And I don't understand why people would mistreat their own family member so poorly to cause these angry separations.

 

 

Again, this is just my belief but I value family and I value people who do the same

I don't understand people like that either - but to condemn people for deciding that they are no longer putting up with the mistreatment and telling us we should just shut up and make peace is rather short sighted. Perhaps it is time for the ass to shut up so there is nothing to make peace over.

 

And to tell people they have no value in your eyes because they do not value family is rather cold, short sighted, and downright rude. Ever hear the adage about walking a mile in another's shoes?  I think it is great you have a familial group that treats each other with love and respect.  That does not make me wrong for refusing to allow one person to disrupt my life any longer.  Thirty years of "keeping the peace" is enough - compromise is defined as EACH person giving a little. I have given enough, as have many others.

[Daddydavek]

There are some people who treat their family like dirt and assume their family has to put up with them because they are "family".   My own daughter seems to be under that misapprehension and still hasn't figured out why I made her move out and barely tolerate being around her.   She can be smarmy nice to complete strangers, but treats family and close friends like doormats figuring that since they are close she doesn't have to be nice.   I've explained in great detail many times the error of her treating people this way but so far to no avail.   She is just thirty-one and living with her fourth live-in and is rude, crude and thinks arguing means shouting, throwing things and being an asshole bitch.  All I can say is I have no idea why any of them ever stay for any length of time.

 

So I can certainly see that while you can't choose your family, you certainly don't have to take their abuse.  And it is not your responsibility to try to change an adult who resists any attempts to get them to modify their unacceptable behavior.  Sometimes for your own peace of mind and well-being you have to cut your losses and terminate all contact.  

 

The courts are clogged in this country with people seeking orders of protection.  For a sample of some available just in one jurisdiction see the web site that follows:    http://www.fccourts.org/drj/protectionorders.html

[A.J.]

Being related to someone doesn't mean that they love or even like you and it surely doesn't mean that you must love or like them.  It would be awesome to live in this fantasy world where families all love each other and follow the golden rule, but there are way too many examples in this world of behavior by parents and other family members that involves physical, sexual or psychological abuse to ever make some of the blanket statements that have been made in this thread.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread doesn't value the idea of family.  For those of us who have an issue with a family member, it didn't happen overnight. 

 

Bobby took my cupcake!  I'll hate him forever!

 

My father changed his behavior towards me the day I came out.  He's never hit me, other than spankings as a child, and he's never directly said anything derogatory to me.  What he has done is make it obvious that my two other brothers are *his* children.   I still love him and for the past 15 years I've tried to make him proud of me, or even notice me.  I won't list all of the things I've tried to do to gain his approval, because the list is too long and pathetic.  This past weekend, I watched 10 hours of sports with him because that is what he wanted to do.  He didn't make any effort to ask about me the entire trip.  Knowing that there are others out there who have been beat or sexually assaulted, I try to remember that this man fed me and didn't kick me out.  I should be thankful for what I do have and not complain.  I try to remember that everyday.  I'm close to my mother and my older brother and that makes up for some of the psychological damage my father has caused.

 

In a sense, I'm thankful that there are people who don't understand what it is like.  It gives me hope that I could have children and avoid the mistakes my father made with me.

 

I will not criticize others who have been so damaged by family members that they choose to avoid them.

[Cia]

I think the saddest thing in the world is to have a dysfunctional family or to have irreconcilable feuds with people within the family. If you haven't talked to someone in over years, there's something seriously wrong with you, if that person is terrible enough for you not to want to talk to them for years on end, there's something seriously wrong with the whole dynamic. It's not a good thing. Unless you have a rapist in the family or something seriously screwed up, if just on the basis of personality differences, you can't at least make peace with the people you are suppose to be closest to, I think it's an indication of what kind of person you are. But then again, we're all right to our own beliefs as to what is good, bad, right or wrong, so this is just what I think.

 

When you're told from the time you're 2 til 16 that you're a mean, hateful person who will never amount to anything and should never have been born... yeah, it's more than personality differences. I was raised to be respectful to my elders, which is the one and only reason I put up with it for as long as I did. Then again, I would do a little dance if my step-witch was excised from my dad's life but I still spend time around her and make nice. I can't stand the woman, but peace is worth a few hours of my time every few months of biting my tongue. Each situation has to be judged and reacted to individually. Sexual abuse isn't the only abuse that a person can be subjected to, by far, or the only thing to protect yourself from. It's hard to judge when you're outside of a situation, so I try not to judge other people's relationships and only worry about my own.

[Never Surrender]

i have to agree with Cia and AJ. Many of those close to me know the nature of my familial relationships, (or lack of). The question of why someone would treat a family member so poorly can be applied in both directions - if someone is refusing to get help, should a member of the family be forced to endure difficult and possibly abusive situations just so they can say that they have a 'relationship' with every member of their family? 

 

time and time again i give certain members of my family a chance, and so far i have been let down each and every time. How many chances do you give before the phrase 'fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me' comes in to play? How many times is the required time to line yourself up in a potentially dangerous situation before you have done enough to walk away with a clear conscience, knowing that you have done enough and tried enough routes that any reconciliation is totally impossible?  these are all questions that i struggle with greatly, and i dont think that anyone outside the individual situation can really give the answer, or pass a judgement. 

[Y_B]

Don't really see where I said I think we should put up with crap from family just because they are family. Pretty strange how what's been said can be interpreted as such.

 

And even if I did explicitly state that, it's not like I'm the one writing the new bible so what does it matter how I'd judge your ideas of whats good or bad? If you are secure in your justifications for doing something, then have some composure and carry on, no need to give us your family history to defend yourself, which brings up an interesting observation. It seems everyone here are all hopeless victims of asshole-dom clearly with no hint of introspection offered. On this topic or any other topic mentioned actually. You know what else I find disconcerting? That. You know what else I also value? People who are not so prone to point the hard finger and maybe admit that we've all likely wronged people in ways others may not be happy with us. Not referencing anything specifically mentioned of course but it just seems like 99% of issues are always the other persons fault. Kinda interesting to think about.

 

I have a cousin who I have mixed feelings about who doesn't really talk to me anymore. I can come up with a million reasons how she's a total bitch who I would do fine not taking to ever again but I'm going to not think that way because I don't think I did my due diligence on keeping things better between us and maybe if I had, she wouldn't be so distant and bitchy. *shrug*

Edited December 11, 2013 by Y_B

[W_L]

Love begins with your parents' family and ends with your own family.

I would take banger's point further and say we learn to love first with people we are closest to, if we are missing that then it becomes much harder to love anyone else.

Edited December 12, 2013 by W_L

[Thorn Wilde]

Don't really see where I said I think we should put up with crap from family just because they are family. Pretty strange how what's been said can be interpreted as such.

 

And even if I did explicitly state that, it's not like I'm the one writing the new bible so what does it matter how I'd judge your ideas of whats good or bad? If you are secure in your justifications for doing something, then have some composure and carry on, no need to give us your family history to defend yourself, which brings up an interesting observation. It seems everyone here are all hopeless victims of asshole-dom clearly with no hint of introspection offered. On this topic or any other topic mentioned actually. You know what else I find disconcerting? That. You know what else I also value? People who are not so prone to point the hard finger and maybe admit that we've all likely wronged people in ways others may not be happy with us. Not referencing anything specifically mentioned of course but it just seems like 99% of issues are always the other persons fault. Kinda interesting to think about.

 

I have a cousin who I have mixed feelings about who doesn't really talk to me anymore. I can come up with a million reasons how she's a total bitch who I would do fine not taking to ever again but I'm going to not think that way because I don't think I did my due diligence on keeping things better between us and maybe if I had, she wouldn't be so distant and bitchy. *shrug*

 

Everything you've said in the last page of this discussion has seemed highly judgmental and deeply hurtful to people who have experience with shitty family. You've also made assumptions regarding the family lives of people you know that you frankly don't seem qualified to make (especially regarding your college friend who didn't get along with his dad; see my previous post). Of course people feel the need to defend themselves when when what you write can be so clearly interpreted as judgmental. If you care so much about introspection and admitting that you've wronged people, the least you can do is own that.

 

Yes, we've all wronged people, and yes, sometimes there are things we could have done differently to save a family relation, but sometimes there really aren't, and nowhere is that as true as with family, precisely because walking away from a situation is so frowned upon. Sometimes trying to fix things will make them worse. Sometimes we should just leave things be and not push. That is almost impossible to do where family is concerned.

 

So, once again, and this is an expression I rarely if ever use because I usually abhor it, but check your privilege. It's not your place to judge, and we have every right to react when you do.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Thorn Wilde

[W_L]

Guys, put your egos back in your pants Some people are growers and some people are showers,

 

Not everyone can be pro-active with their feelings, nor can everyone really live by any standard. Thorn, just don't let Banger's life define your own if your choices are what you think are or were the best for you. Banger, judge people like the old chinese ladies that talk trash about their relatives during games Mahjong (I've learned a few fun secrets, criminal records, adulterous scandals, and other things from that old fashioned Chinese game ). I probably have been mentioned over in Texas at one of those games.

 

I find there is a load of hypocrisy in how Chinese families actually work; on the outside we are very much together and aligned as a clan and group, but within it, we're gossipy and filled with innuendos about sexual preferences. Relatives snipe one another all the time at the first sign of familial weakness. Then at New Years, we all sit a big table and eat dinner together with the knowledge of who is backstabbing who, who is cheating with who, and how cheap that family is versus the others. There's an old Idiom about Chinese feasts, "It is the deadliest times of one's life", social and familial struggles can tarnish you to the family and ruin you.

[Celethiel]

sometimes people ideology can come between them and the ones they love...

This is something that is ingraned in a person their ideology...the way they think...

and if their child, parent or whatever breaks that it breaks the relationship...

if a father or a mother or even a simbling beleave with their whole heart that something is wrong... (especially if they don't see it as a natural thing but say an aborant behavior) such as being gay, it will destroy the relationship they have with the person who offends that point of view...

[crazyfish]

Try having Livia Soprano for a mother ... that might change the views of the "Family Forever" folks 

 

 

Guys, put your egos back in your pants   Some people are growers and some people are showers, 

 

Not everyone can be pro-active with their feelings, nor can everyone really live by any standard. Thorn, just don't let Banger's life define your own if your choices are what you think are or were the best for you. Banger, judge people like the old chinese ladies that talk trash about their relatives during games Mahjong (I've learned a few fun secrets, criminal records, adulterous scandals, and other things from that old fashioned Chinese game   ). I probably have been mentioned over in Texas at one of those games. 

 

I find there is a load of hypocrisy in how Chinese families actually work; on the outside we are very much together and aligned as a clan and group, but within it, we're gossipy and filled with innuendos about sexual preferences. Relatives snipe one another all the time at the first sign of familial weakness. Then at New Years, we all sit a big table and eat dinner together with the knowledge of who is backstabbing who, who is cheating with who, and how cheap that family is versus the others. There's an old Idiom about Chinese feasts, "It is the deadliest times of one's life", social and familial struggles can tarnish you to the family and ruin you.

 

When the dependability of your family bonds is what determines whether you lived or died through a crisis, I suppose shitty new year dinners are a small price to pay. 

 

I and my family are not close emotionally, but paradoxically enough I can count on them when shit happens because we're old-fashioned about these things. However, we don't especially need to feel close to each other. I suspect if we did try for something more, we would hate each other so fiercely that it's simply not worth the trouble. We are like a bunch of electrons stuffed in a bag--there's just one metastable configuration that demands we can't be too close to each other. 

 

I view these things like a tragedy of the commons problem. If everyone did their part, family love is a grand fine thing.  But no one is especially tasked with keeping family love(you could argue that the mother is specially responsible for family unity, usually that means, she is supposed to bend over backwards to make everyone happy. But that these days that's outdated), but everyone is expected to uphold it. So some will give more than they receive, and there are those who receive a shit more than they give, and there are those who would give but grumble and curse and gripe about it and you'll never hear the end of it. I'd argue that family love wasn't especially great either in some mythic past either. Take a look at the history of royal families to feel the deep abiding  love.  In the past, people put up with shit more because it determined their survival literally. 

 

In this day and age in western countries, when you really don't need family networks to survive, family love is just a quaint spiritual notion. Nice if it's there. A bummer if it isn't. There's no reason to bend over for family bullshit when basically you can survive on your own--ah 'progress'. 

[joann414]

I have a sister that I went the ten years between my mother and father's death without speaking to her.  She became very involved in the church after marrying, therefore appointing herself my life's judge.  The day my mom was buried, she handed me a letter as my husband and I was leaving the cemetery.  It pretty much started off telling me all the things that were wrong with me and the things I'd done in life that she did not approve of.  My husband was reading over my shoulder, grabbed it out of my hand and tore it to shreds,  Seems she'd forgotten she was the one that was kicked out of the house when she was eighteen because of stuff she was doing that my daddy didn't approve of, and if you pushed my dad that far, you were WRONG in your actions.

When my dad's health starting to decline ten years later, resulting from diabetes, he asked me to try to keep our family together when he was gone. He and his three siblings were orphaned as toddlers because their parents died of TB.  They were lucky enough to wind up with great foster parents which I viewed as grandparents.  So, I had two sets on my dad's side and they were wonderful people. So, knowing how much my dad valued family, I agreed.  So, on holidays, I invite all of my siblings.  That doesn't mean that she and I are best friends, or even go places together.  I just tolerate her, and as she's gotten older, she's tried to make amends, which I've firmly resisted.  She can be a part of my family, but not my friend or confidant.  She betrayed our kinship years ago at my mom's funeral.  That's how I view it. 

So, how do I explain this toleration not wearing on me?  I surround myself with my family members that I love, and appreciate the love and friendship that I bestow on them.  I even have a step aunt that was married to my uncle that died last year, and she and her three grown children still join us for holidays, and I enjoy and love them very much.  So, yeah.  Once a family member judges me, or slaps me down with words in front of others, I'm done as their friend.  They are just plain family because of blood, nothing more, nothing less. 

[Graeme]

The thread has been re-opened. Please be civil in any future discussions and remember that not everyone has the same life experiences and opinions as yourself. We're all different, and we all have different families.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Graeme
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