Black Widow (Story Discussion)

[centexhairysub]

5 hours ago, Mark Arbour said:

 

I'm so glad you didn't, but just so you know, if the day comes that you decide to do that, I promised Sharon that JJ gets hit by a bus. 

 

I honestly would prefer that you do actually kill JJ off if this story arc is going to continue in the same manner.  I would rather him get back to the condo, swallow a bottle of pills, get into a warm bath with sharp instrument and actually end it all; in real life I truly believe this situation could lead to a resolution like this.  I totally disagree with methodwriter85; I think this is extraordinarily cruel and abusive behavior, as a therapist; I would honestly advise a patient to get as far away from any family member that did something like this.  If you don't want him to kill himself; then maybe have whomever the Black Widow is try and kidnap him and he get killed in the attempt.  Either would be preferable to what is happening now for me.

[Timothy M.]

15 hours ago, Mark Arbour said:

JJ has ample grounds to whine and bitch about his family neglecting him, etc., etc., but the deal with Maddy was pretty clear cut. 

 

So the main reason for JP, Stef, Will and Darius to embark on this crusade to teach JJ a lesson is due to him grabbing Maddy ?

I find that very interesting considering this conversation between JJ and JP.

 

Quote

 “Did they tell you why they were there?” he asked.

I rolled my eyes at that.  “They’re still mad at me for trying to stop Maddy from running around the house like a demon from hell.  That’s what this is about, and it’s crap, since it’s unreasonable for me to sit there and put up with kids screaming and yelling in the kitchen.” 

“I would point out that it was my kitchen you felt you had the right to police, and I would further point out that it is not your place to discipline Maddy,” he said. 

“Well then I’ll just stay away,” I snapped.

“The most disturbing thing is that you have not heard a thing the rest of us have been saying to you,” Grand said. 

“What are you talking about?” I demanded.

“You are universally prickly and mean to everyone in the family with the exception of Stefan, and then you rely on him to cover for you, and to explain your inexplicable behavior,” he said.  “And worse than that, you are being rude to Mr. Carullo, who is our guest.” 

 

JP is saying the reason they are unhappy with JJ is his universal bad behavior, of which the Maddy incident is simply one case. And that his treatment of Carullo is worse.

But you're saying (as the all-knowing author) that the only really inexcusable action by JJ is him grabbing Maddy. Or perhaps failing to admit he was out of line by doing so ?

 

Fine, I'll concede JJ was out of line with Maddy and should apologize. But in that case the rest of his family should apologize for neglecting, harassing or ignoring him for most of his life. Will is the only one of them who we have seen trying to do stuff out of concern or care for JJ, like saying nice things about his skating or admitting his revenge over MaryEllen was clever, but I admit this is probably mainly due to us following his POV. Stef apparently defends JJ, so he must care too, and he (and Brad) did make a deal with Bellona to give JJ entry to the fashion world. But they haven't shown much interest in JJ's state of mind or mental health.

 

Oh, well, JJ will probably rant and rave and bitch, but eventually he'll concede defeat and buckle under the joint family disapproval. It remains to be seen in what way - @centexhairysub has suggested the most  scary and epic 'solution' so far.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Timothy M.

[centexhairysub]

14 hours ago, Mark Arbour said:

 

This is the only thing in your post that I have to vehemently disagree with you about.  JJ has ample grounds to whine and bitch about his family neglecting him, etc., etc., but the deal with Maddy was pretty clear cut.  Keep in mind that we're seeing this through JJ's eyes, so we don't know if the kids were really being that obnoxious, but even assuming that they were that bad, he had no grounds to interfere, and he had absolutely no right to grab her.  That type of physical action is always out of line for someone who isn't the child's parent.  He's her half-brother, and even though he's shown no interest in Maddy (or Riley), that status gives him at most the right to talk to them sternly.  I would have expected him to say to them, "hey, calm down!" or probably a more snarky "settle down, this isn't a playground."  If that didn't work, he needed to talk to Tiffany.  Quite frankly, the only person who has, IMHO, the right to voice true and firm disapproval (besides Tiffany) is JP (or maybe Isidore).  It's his kitchen, and he likes having his great-grandchildren (as he would consider them) around.  I suspect that if he would have been there, he would have treated them indulgently, taking into account that it was a busy morning, one that would have been a bit chaotic with preparations to leave.  If it were dinner in the dining room and not breakfast in the kitchen, he would have expected an entirely different type of behavior. 

 

 

Okay, first of all I am going to state that while I work extensively with adolescents and have numerous nieces and nephews, I have no children of my own.  I once again respectfully disagree with this.  If JJ had disciplined Maddy, I think you would be more inline with my thinking but he did not.  He stopped her from running around a busy kitchen, which honestly she could have been hurt in; was that JJ's motivation no, but still I don't see how this was wrong.  I would never think twice about stopping any child in my extended family from running around any of hour family kitchens, nor would any parent of said child have an issue with it, I asked this morning.  If he had spanked Maddy, or even made her stand in the corner, then I would agree those actions would not be for JJ to take.  But no kitchen, not even one are efficiently as I am sure any kitchen in a house owned by JP and or Isidore is really a safe play area for a small child.  I cannot tell you how many times I have put my hands on a small child in my family, usually on the shoulder, and marched them out of a kitchen.  I just don't see where this is an issue at all.  Now, if it was a child that I was not related to; I would probably get a relative to take the child out of the kitchen unless there was a issue where time or safety did not allow that.

 

 

13 hours ago, Drew Espinosa said:

JJ's already bitchy, adding more bitchiness from Will and Darius isn't gonna help anything.  

 

I think this statement sums up so many of my feelings on this; if the actions of Will, Darius, JP, and Stef were in any manner constructive I would not be having as big of a reaction to all of this.  But I honestly feel that they have all regressed back to kindergarten and are fighting over who gets the bucket in the sandbox.  The problem is that JJ because of his history is more susceptible to the negative impact this may have on him than others in the family. 

 

 

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:26 AM, methodwriter85 said:

 

I've been Mark's beta reader for 9 years now. (Holy shit, am I really not 22 anymore? Geez.) We've had some pretty big disagreements and a couple of times I came close to no longer being on Mark's team because of said disagreements. Sharon (the editor) told me once, "You need to step back a little and remember that this is a fictional soap opera, and that this is all supposed to be fun." So I did eventually learn to step back a little, and I've enjoyed the story a lot more since. Hell, some things I vehemently disagreed with turned out to be some of the best storylines Mark has done. I thought it would be a lame rerun of Brad/Robbie to have Will fall in love with a Hayes football player from Claremont, and I couldn't have possibly been wrong. The Zach/Will coupling has been one of my favorite storylines.

 

JJ's had some pretty dark things happen to him, but I haven't seen JJ's current character arc as being dark. He's just being a spoiled little rich boy trying to make himself feared and admired in a big little pond like New York City, and his family is trying to "check" him, so to speak Basically, he's like a character in teen comedy coming-of-age film who is sure that they have everything all figured out, and they need a wake-up call that they don't, a la Clueless/Emma. Calling what they did as being "cruel" seems a bit much. They know that JJ's weakness is being the forgotten middle brother and they used that here. Was it a bit bitchy? Sure. Did it make a point? Also sure.

 

Cruel would have been one of them throwing back JJ's old cutting habit back into his face, or what Johnny Weir said to JJ about the Twin Towers. It was under the belt but not that far below.

 

Okay, I got some feedback that I could just not label something abusive or cruel and not explain my reasoning so as quickly as I can here it goes.  Some I an not going to rehash as I already feel I have done before; but one of the biggest reasons that I find this abusive and cruel is the loss of JJ's identity and safe place once again. 

 

JJ has a history of sexual abuse and self harming.  In addition, he lost his mother's involvement in his life when her mental issues overwhelmed her; he then lost both her and Robbie when the towers fell; then he lost his career that he had given up any semblance of a normal life for by suffering a debilitating physical injury; and then he lost his first love, and yes, others in this family seem to fall in and out of love and lust on a daily basis but JJ seems to require a level of emotional and psychological attachment to those he cares for before he can get really involved and this makes the loss harder on him than some of the loses suffered by others in his family.

 

JJ truly seems to be the forgotten child in his family.  Other than Claire, Matt, Will, and Stef no one seems to ever take any interest or makes any effort to get involved in his life in any meaningful way because they actually want to.  When he was sexually abused by his coach, his family stepped in but honestly, when Michael was taking all the photos of him naked, most of the family just tried to sweep it under the rug.  I know some will disagree with this but I want written proof of any sustained interest that any others have ever really taken or tried to involve themselves in his life.  And I will give you that each of them; Claire, Will, Matt, and Stef had made an effort at times; but few of the instances have come across as being out of love and familial caring.

 

JJ has set himself up in New York.  He got back into school, and is trying to carve out a life for himself outside of skating and his family.  With Claire and Stef's help he was trying to make a place for himself in the fashion world.  I find nothing in his actions that indicate he was trying to make himself feared by anyone; yes, maybe admired but then is that not a basic need that most of us have.  He had chosen Bellona as his surrogate loco parentis without the legal obligations and as his mentor.  He was forming an important bond with her in order to establish his place in the very closed and insular world of high fashion.  But the actions of Will, Darius, JP, and Stef have truly ripped all of this away from him, once again he has suffered a major loss of security and happiness.  The fact that they pulled Bellona into the scheme means that no matter what happens, JJ will never be able to fully trust her again.  JJ is smart enough to realize that part of the party scene could not have occurred without her assistance.  He has once again lost one of the few adult figures in his life that meant something to him.  Even if the issue with his family resolves itself; the rupture that JJ will have with Bellona will never fully go away, he will always be looking out for when she betrays him again.  Plus, as with any insular community like the high fashion world, there are few if any secrets.  People will find out what his family pulled and this will always taint JJ's place in their world.  So once again, JJ will have to recover from losing another important relationship with an adult that really mattered in his life, plus will have to realize that no matter what, his place in the new life that he was trying to make for himself with be forever tainted. 

 

I don't know how you could call this anything but cruel and abusive. 

[Timothy M.]

52 minutes ago, centexhairysub said:

So once again, JJ will have to recover from losing another important relationship with an adult that really mattered in his life, plus will have to realize that no matter what, his place in the new life that he was trying to make for himself with be forever tainted. 

 

 I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're right about JJ having his safe place and dependable adult ripped away. The same thing happened in Norway during the skating competition, but because we saw the way JJ acted and how poisonous his relationship with his mother was, it made sense the family tried to break it up, and of course even more so, when the truth about his trainer came out. JJ exhibits the same behavior now with the selfish manners and the tale telling - but that should make the family realize he's in exactly the same mental state as before, and of course just as annoying.  

 

I guess the point your explanation made me realize is they should offer JJ a suitable safe place and a better role model, before they shred the cocoon. Because let's face it, Bellona is a vicious bitch who likes to embarrass people around her. I guess the family thought 'nice and happy' Carullo could be the role model and the condo the safe space, and they're upset it didn't work. 

 

Even if we all end up agreeing JJ has behaved like a spoiled child, they should still try to figure out what would be a suitable way of giving JJ security and a way to evolve as a person. If they start seeing him as a kid rather than an adult, will that change their strategy? Will they realize his need for a parent figure he can trust and love? Someone who is actually present in his life on a daily basis?

 

I have no expectations about all this ranting changing one bit of the story line, but I hope Mark enjoys the passion his tale evokes. But if we're lucky a few readers may take another look at JJ and read older chapters and CAP stories with a new outlook.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Timothy M.

[Timothy M.]

I guess the most recent chapter is meant to show JJ is so bitchy and mean he hasn't made any real friends in N.Y. Do Stef, JP and Will feel sorry for him or do they simply believe he should learn better manners in order not to embarrass the family? What if JJ doesn't miss having friends? After all, he's never had any in school or in skating? But I suppose it's not very healthy to desire admirers instead of friends and partners. Look what happens if you''re rich and surrounded by bootlickers for 70 years.

Spoiler

You might ens up as POTUS  

 

[Daddydavek]

Well Mark, I see you've started another heated discussion over your current couple of chapters of gay soap opera with JJ perceived as the victim rather than the villain.  Sit back and enjoy as I know you really get a kick out of this!  

 

Thanks to Centexhairysub for being the point man in this and the rest for stoking the fire!  

 

In point of fact, I think that Mark has written JJ as both the victim and the villain in the last few chapters and understands that he is a bit of both. In the larger scheme of things, brothers often do torment each other, sometimes with a purpose and sometimes just because they are handy.   And paybacks are usually fairly swift.  I wouldn't be surprised if JJ  figures some way to do just that in a way to let them know he got the message but didn't care for the delivery.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Daddydavek

[Northern Dutch Guy]

On 25/09/2017 at 5:42 PM, centexhairysub said:

 

Okay, first of all I am going to state that while I work extensively with adolescents and have numerous nieces and nephews, I have no children of my own.  I once again respectfully disagree with this.  If JJ had disciplined Maddy, I think you would be more inline with my thinking but he did not.  He stopped her from running around a busy kitchen, which honestly she could have been hurt in; was that JJ's motivation no, but still I don't see how this was wrong.  I would never think twice about stopping any child in my extended family from running around any of hour family kitchens, nor would any parent of said child have an issue with it, I asked this morning.  If he had spanked Maddy, or even made her stand in the corner, then I would agree those actions would not be for JJ to take.  But no kitchen, not even one are efficiently as I am sure any kitchen in a house owned by JP and or Isidore is really a safe play area for a small child.  I cannot tell you how many times I have put my hands on a small child in my family, usually on the shoulder, and marched them out of a kitchen.  I just don't see where this is an issue at all.  Now, if it was a child that I was not related to; I would probably get a relative to take the child out of the kitchen unless there was a issue where time or safety did not allow that.

 

 

 

I think this statement sums up so many of my feelings on this; if the actions of Will, Darius, JP, and Stef were in any manner constructive I would not be having as big of a reaction to all of this.  But I honestly feel that they have all regressed back to kindergarten and are fighting over who gets the bucket in the sandbox.  The problem is that JJ because of his history is more susceptible to the negative impact this may have on him than others in the family. 

 

 

 

Okay, I got some feedback that I could just not label something abusive or cruel and not explain my reasoning so as quickly as I can here it goes.  Some I an not going to rehash as I already feel I have done before; but one of the biggest reasons that I find this abusive and cruel is the loss of JJ's identity and safe place once again. 

 

JJ has a history of sexual abuse and self harming.  In addition, he lost his mother's involvement in his life when her mental issues overwhelmed her; he then lost both her and Robbie when the towers fell; then he lost his career that he had given up any semblance of a normal life for by suffering a debilitating physical injury; and then he lost his first love, and yes, others in this family seem to fall in and out of love and lust on a daily basis but JJ seems to require a level of emotional and psychological attachment to those he cares for before he can get really involved and this makes the loss harder on him than some of the loses suffered by others in his family.

 

JJ truly seems to be the forgotten child in his family.  Other than Claire, Matt, Will, and Stef no one seems to ever take any interest or makes any effort to get involved in his life in any meaningful way because they actually want to.  When he was sexually abused by his coach, his family stepped in but honestly, when Michael was taking all the photos of him naked, most of the family just tried to sweep it under the rug.  I know some will disagree with this but I want written proof of any sustained interest that any others have ever really taken or tried to involve themselves in his life.  And I will give you that each of them; Claire, Will, Matt, and Stef had made an effort at times; but few of the instances have come across as being out of love and familial caring.

 

JJ has set himself up in New York.  He got back into school, and is trying to carve out a life for himself outside of skating and his family.  With Claire and Stef's help he was trying to make a place for himself in the fashion world.  I find nothing in his actions that indicate he was trying to make himself feared by anyone; yes, maybe admired but then is that not a basic need that most of us have.  He had chosen Bellona as his surrogate loco parentis without the legal obligations and as his mentor.  He was forming an important bond with her in order to establish his place in the very closed and insular world of high fashion.  But the actions of Will, Darius, JP, and Stef have truly ripped all of this away from him, once again he has suffered a major loss of security and happiness.  The fact that they pulled Bellona into the scheme means that no matter what happens, JJ will never be able to fully trust her again.  JJ is smart enough to realize that part of the party scene could not have occurred without her assistance.  He has once again lost one of the few adult figures in his life that meant something to him.  Even if the issue with his family resolves itself; the rupture that JJ will have with Bellona will never fully go away, he will always be looking out for when she betrays him again.  Plus, as with any insular community like the high fashion world, there are few if any secrets.  People will find out what his family pulled and this will always taint JJ's place in their world.  So once again, JJ will have to recover from losing another important relationship with an adult that really mattered in his life, plus will have to realize that no matter what, his place in the new life that he was trying to make for himself with be forever tainted. 

 

I don't know how you could call this anything but cruel and abusive. 

 

JJ used to be that happy kid when younger.

Mark never used him as a main character. So we do not know him as we do Will or Brad.

JJ has been in many stories/chapters as a side character and... that sometimes happens in families as well. Hmmm... maybe a bit like a neglected child.

And in my opinion Mark wrote his character as a bit of a loner. An 'einzelgänger'. And kids like him make mistakes big time... because they lack, and I'm not sure I say that right, that socialising behaviour and feeling.

The character of JJ is still a boy growing up and... he is not (yet) very social for... I think he is basicly feeling unsecure. I think that is also what is part of being an 'Einzelgänger'.

I do not think JJ is really a bad or stupid guy ... but he is 'clumsy' being social. Maybe lacks empathy.

JJ is in my POV still a kid growing up. And growing up is not for every kid the same. JJ hmmm  ... 'social' he is much younger. So let's not judge him as an adult.

He still is a kid growing up (with some bad experiences ...) and he probably does not (yet) understand the socialising stuff the way most of us do.

And probably that makes him act 'clumsy' ...

 

The way Will and Darius acted certainly must have had a big impact. But for JJ  probably more like... 'OMG what did I do wrong ?'.

JJ is probably not even aware he is socially  'clumsy'.

 

Mark I look forward how you will handle JJ in the next chapters/stories.

 

Andy G.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Northern Dutch Guy

[methodwriter85]

On 10/13/2017 at 6:02 PM, Northern Dutch Guy said:

 

JJ used to be that happy kid when younger.

Mark never used him as a main character. So we do not know him as we do Will or Brad.

JJ has been in many stories/chapters as a side character and... that sometimes happens in families as well. Hmmm... maybe a bit like a neglected child.

And in my opinion Mark wrote his character as a bit of a loner. An 'einzelgänger'. And kids like him make mistakes big time... because they lack, and I'm not sure I say that right, that socialising behaviour and feeling.

The character of JJ is still a boy growing up and... he is not (yet) very social for... I think he is basicly feeling unsecure. I think that is also what is part of being an 'Einzelgänger'.

I do not think JJ is really a bad or stupid guy ... but he is 'clumsy' being social. Maybe lacks empathy.

JJ is in my POV still a kid growing up. And growing up is not for every kid the same. JJ hmmm  ... 'social' he is much younger. So let's not judge him as an adult.

He still is a kid growing up (with some bad experiences ...) and he probably does not (yet) understand the socialising stuff the way most of us do.

And probably that makes him act 'clumsy' ...

 

The way Will and Darius acted certainly must have had a big impact. But for JJ  probably more like... 'OMG what did I do wrong ?'.

JJ is probably not even aware he is socially  'clumsy'.

 

Mark I look forward how you will handle JJ in the next chapters/stories.

 

Andy G.

 

What makes JJ different from most of the CAP narrators that we have is that he's a bit of enigma. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve.

 

Anyway, I'm absolutely loving JJ's current plot. It's like something straight out of a late 90's/early 2000's romantic comedy,  just the twist being that it's a same-sex pairing. I wanted so badly to say something about where this was going when Cent was despairing for JJ and convinced this would wind up all depressive, and I was like, "No! JJ's actually getting to have fun for once!"

 

The whole thing is kind of reminding me of Josh and Cher in Clueless:

 

You gotta love "opposites attract" stories.

Edited December 25, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Daddydavek]

A black widow is a spider and the tangled web of threads running in this story is a fairly elaborate web and it seems JP's clan is being drawn ever more into the web.

[Canuk]

22 hours ago, Daddydavek said:

A black widow is a spider and the tangled web of threads running in this story is a fairly elaborate web and it seems JP's clan is being drawn ever more into the web.

 

Black widows also eat their mates after copulation... if followed faithfully it  makes for a rapid turnover in characters!

[Canuk]

Also takes "you taste good" to a whole new level!

[methodwriter85]

Wait, the maternal grandparents have a Jersey shore house? Now I'm getting the mental image of someone like JJ trying to hang out with Bennies at the Jersey Shore, and I'm loving the mental image. Knowing Carullo, he probably does the Jersey Shore thing. I actually have relatives who live in Ocean County, in Tom's River. I spent about two years of my childhood in the neighboring county, Monmouth County.

 

Brad mentioning the fact that JJ is about to turn 18 made me remember that of the 3 sons that Brad raised, Darius is the only one who didn't move out before he turned 18. LOL.

 

I'm excited for the talent show. I'm also kind of hoping that Ryan gives Marie a chance even though he prefers women of color. Marie's pretty awesome.

 

[Timothy M.]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm excited for the talent show. I'm also kind of hoping that Ryan gives Marie a chance even though he prefers women of color. Marie's pretty awesome.

 

 

Marie is a selfish, spoiled bitch.

[Northern Dutch Guy]

On 9/22/2017 at 6:33 AM, Mark Arbour said:

My comments on Chapter 48:  

 

I forgot how much fun you guys are.  I think part of the problem here is that, with a serial story, it's sometimes difficult to get all the thoughts out in one chapter.  In addition, I've been busy as f**k so I haven't been able to post chapters fast enough to fully explain the rationale behind this. 

 

I think it's safe to say that JJ has been acting like a total douche.  He had absolutely no business treating Maddy the way he did, he's been a jerk to Will and most of the other family members, and he's been pointedly rude to Carullo. That he set himself in New York, education at all, is just lovely, but it isn't an excuse or even a reason to excuse the way he's acted.  If performing well in life's duties was a plausible excuse for asshole behavior, the Will-haters out there would have no leg to stand on. 

 

We've seen JJ do this before, where he builds a cocoon around himself and in that cocoon is a world that isn't real.  Outside pressure doesn't seem to get through to him.  The only thing that does it, it seems, is if he's shocked out of his complacency.  That's what JP, Stef, et al. were trying to do.

 

Mark, I can only hope I'm part of the fun guys ...

JJ was this kind of happy go lucky kid before when much younger. But I think he was also a neglected child.

Will reacted very more extreme when he felt neglected but JJ is more insecure and... clumsy in lots of situations.

And after he became succesfull in skating...  that fragile cocoon formed by beeing succesfull but also by beeing abused... 9-11 the loss of his role model mom and dad, Alex turning him down when he most needed him... makes him who he is now.

He acts wrong because he is insecure and knows he is fragile.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Northern Dutch Guy

[Northern Dutch Guy]

On 9/22/2017 at 9:04 AM, Timothy M. said:

 

But why does he have to be 'shocked out of his complacency' and come out of his comfortable cocoon? Is he doing anyone any real harm by being in there? OK, so he's rude to Carullo, but that guy would get on my nerves too, and if he simply left JJ alone and ignored him, there wouldn't be a problem - hmm or would JJ seek him out just to be rude?.  

 

As for being rude to Will and the rest of the family, it seems to me JJ isn't the one getting in touch with them, so why don't they ignore him too? And JJ may have no right to grab Maddy and shout at her, but if that is the main reason they're harassing him, then I find them vindictive rather than constructive in approach. She'll have to learn some manners too, especially concerning noise level, if she wants to be in JP's presence. But I guess that will be in ten years time when she's a teen. 

 

JJ may be a douche but that's nothing new. And in the past when they've gotten through to him with shock treatment, did they follow it up with some consistent help and kindness ? (Apart from the time he was in hospital after cutting himself.) If their reason was worry over JJ's mental health and him acting like this because he's lonely and depressive - or worse, being abused again, then yes, their tactics might make sense. But if their only reason is that they want him to be polite to people who try to butt into his cocoon, then I may end up siding completely with @centexhairysub  about the wrongness of their approach. 

 

Right now I'm undecided, mostly because JP condones their approach. But even he has been wrong from time to time - and in fact, none of them were close enough to JJ or made the effort to approach him and gain his trust and find out why he was acting like this when he first developed his hostile character. It was only by accident they found out what was wrong, so I'd expect them to cut him some slack this time, or at least make a real effort to find out why he was acting up. Wasn't that was JP told Brad and Robbie after Will wrecked their belongings? 'This is what happens when your kid thinks you don't love him' or something similar?  Again, has JJ done any serious harm to anybody with his behavior? If they feel sorry for Carullo, simply set him up in another apartment so he's free to leave.

 

On the other hand, I dislike JJ a lot, so if you're out to bitch-slap him, it's OK with me. I just want them to have a proper reason to do it.  

 

I'm certain all off us who comment here about JJ grew up different. So is the character of JJ and JJ is not a standard character. A neglected child with some horrible past times.

9-11 Loosing the mother figure he had and father figure he had... the guy is more insecure and Alex almost turning him away... OMG the guy has reasons to be angry ... but his only outlet is towards the people he trusts. JJ is insecure but also hurting deeply... in my POV.

And socially it makes him act like he is almost authistic. And yes at the moment his character is a guy most people would not like and even less would understand.

But hey in my POV characters like JJ also make stories different and more exciting.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Northern Dutch Guy

[Mark Arbour]

Hopefully I addressed another reason for this in Chapter 52.  Darius is usually so perceptive.

[methodwriter85]

Sojurn said:

 

Quote

More and more I see Zach almost as a reincarnation of Robby. Robby was my favorite character in the early years. I was also a big fan of Stef's partner who died of AIDS. (I am glad this habit of picking losers doesn't carry over to my real life.) I can't say that I care much for Zach. I think that is because he has shown himself to be less than on more than a few occasions. The sooner he is completely out of the picture the sooner Will can get on with his life and prepare himself to eventually lead the family just as JP has. I know that is years away but Zach takes up an undeserved proportion of Will's energy and attention.

 

See, I really have to disagree with you about Zach being like a reincarnation of Robbie. They are very, very different characters. Robbie was for the most well-intentioned but also easily led around, and he really wanted people to like him. Zach, meanwhile, doesn't give a shit if you like him, and he doesn't have Robbie's insecurities about needing people's approval. I think Robbie as a result of that tendency tended to try and hide away bad things he did because he didn't want people to dislike him. Zach, meanwhile, is pretty upfront about the fact that he's a mercenary guy- he doesn't form many attachments to people because he's focused on a pretty singular goal. Will is the one exception to that, but even Will knows that Zach is always going to chose his football career first.

 

They're both prone to bad decisions but I don't see much similarity beyond that. Zach tends to own his flaws more.

 

9/11. It's weird to think just how much it had faded for the public at large just two years later,  except for the people that were personally effected by it. I remember the first anniversary, back in 2002, we had a long conversation in my French class about it. 2003 just felt like another day.

[Timothy M.]

Zach and Robbie are very different personalities, but they both take the man who loves them on a rollercoaster ride of joy and anguish.

[Headstall]

On 1/7/2018 at 4:24 PM, Timothy M. said:

 

Marie is a selfish, spoiled bitch.

 

[Headstall]

12 hours ago, Timothy M. said:

Zach and Robbie are very different personalities, but they both take the man who loves them on a rollercoaster ride of joy and anguish.

Robbie was seriously flawed, but he was also lovable. It used to shock me how he would knowingly hurt Brad time and time again, but there was a very damaged part of Robbie that kept rearing its head. I always forgave him, just like Brad did.

 

I find I'm not so forgiving of Zach. I still believe he loves Will, as much as he can love anyone that isn't him, but I often thought he needed Will more. They are young, and things change, but at his core, I feel Zach is a cold, mercenary type person. The end will always justify the means for him, and that's often the case for high-achievers. I pity the road ahead for Will if he sticks with him. For example, if his career ends, and the adulation stops, I suspect he will wallow, rage, and punish all who care for him. 

 

Yup... both men are/were rollercoasters.   

Edited February 2, 2018 by Headstall

[methodwriter85]

On 2/2/2018 at 2:19 PM, Headstall said:

Robbie was seriously flawed, but he was also lovable. It used to shock me how he would knowingly hurt Brad time and time again, but there was a very damaged part of Robbie that kept rearing its head. I always forgave him, just like Brad did.

 

I find I'm not so forgiving of Zach. I still believe he loves Will, as much as he can love anyone that isn't him, but I often thought he needed Will more. They are young, and things change, but at his core, I feel Zach is a cold, mercenary type person. The end will always justify the means for him, and that's often the case for high-achievers. I pity the road ahead for Will if he sticks with him. For example, if his career ends, and the adulation stops, I suspect he will wallow, rage, and punish all who care for him. 

 

Yup... both men are/were rollercoasters.   

 

Agreed. Robbie had a warm heart, and Zach does not. He does have the capacity to love someone, and I believe that Will taps into that part of him, but Zach is at his core a mercenary person. Mark has even described Zach as mercenary.

 

I have to disagree with you though about Zach going on a downward spiral though if/when his career ends. As you said, he's like a Tracey Flick kind of person. They always get ahead, no matter what. If his career ends he'd find another one and pursue that with vigor as well.

 

Then again, I thought JJ was going to wind up flaming out like Tonya Harding when his career inevitably ended and he's actually taken it much better than I thought he would. These characters have a way of surprising us sometimes.

Edited February 4, 2018 by methodwriter85

[methodwriter85]

JJ watching the Nebelhorn Competition and wondering "what if" was nice, and it kind of showed how much he had moved on.

 

Look, I'm not going to pretend I was thrilled with that decision, because myself and Daisy put A LOT of work into writing out a believable career timeline for JJ that would have spanned at least up to the 2005 -2006 season. We however did not account for Mark deciding it was time for JJ to tear his ACL and thus lose his chance to prove his mettle at the '03 Worlds. Oh, well. I did kind of wish we could have seen how JJ would have fit into the Evan Lysacek/Johnny Weir rivalry of the 2000's, but whatever.

 

Mark's reasoning for it- that having to write in a skating storyline and therefore having to account for JJ either being gone for a competition or characters following him there, as well as the relationship/storyline restrictions it put on him, made a lot of sense. And honestly, JJ never seemed to have that much passion for the sport. Especially towards the end of his career- he seemed very technical about skating and he loved that he was great at it and the rush of audience adulation, but he didn't seem to love the sport itself. It didn't feel like his "soul", for lack of a better word. It was something he did because he loved that he was good at something that his brothers were not, and because he got attention from the world about how good he was, but it's not like how football is to Zach.

 

And it's also interesting to see that JJ's no longer willing to be the chaste Disney Princess skating (and his relationship with Alex) wanted him to be.

[methodwriter85]

This is the movie that Mary Kate and Ashley were working on:

 

This is also the last movie they did together. Mary Kate got treated for anorexia right before her 18th birthday in June of '04. They would both attend NYU for a few semesters before dropping out to attend to their fashion empire.

 

I didn't really watch most of their stuff but eh, it does kind of feel like I grew up with them. They have had some pretty interesting, eccentric lives.

 

And I honestly felt like JJ would probably like them. Being a child star isn't that different from being a child athlete (except of course JJ didn't make millions from it) and they just seem like they would have run in similar circles. I did really like the banter that Mark gave them.

 

Anyway, I could just hear Will's enthusiasm for Dillon deflating when he revealed himself as a dumb pretty boy. Will could have the guy as a friend with benefits, but in the long-term I can't seem prodigy Will being able to be with a guy who wasn't intelligent.

 

As for Carullo, I loved the touch that West Coast raised JJ wouldn't get that where he's working in Connecticut is not a commutable distance. Poor JJ. He'll rebound, though.

 

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JJ truly has a vision for fashion, obviously Mary Kate took his advice because the line that they put out was noted for the muted colors and fading effect in many of the pieces. 

 

I did not follow their clothing, but yeah, when I think of mid-2000's fashion, I tend to think of pastels and boho peasant skirts on girls.

 

Edited May 6, 2018 by methodwriter85

[Timothy M.]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:37 AM, methodwriter85 said:

 

Anyway, I could just hear Will's enthusiasm for Dillon deflating when he revealed himself as a dumb pretty boy. Will could have the guy as a friend with benefits, but in the long-term I can't seem prodigy Will being able to be with a guy who wasn't intelligent.

 

 

Yeah, me too. I'm waiting a bit to see if the List of Will's sex partners needs to be updated with more than a hand job, but Dillon seems to be no more than a random distraction from Zach.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Timothy M.

[impunity]

I predict Dillon will bail on college, move to Hawaii, and live in Will's house. He'll be Will's version of Scott Slater.*

 

 

*Minus the shady past and identity change 😀

Edited May 5, 2018 by impunity