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Giving a bad review to a story.


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This is a difficult topic, but shouldn't simply be ignored because it is difficult. How do you give a bad review to a story? Every review on GA appears to be a good review (four or five stars). But do you just not write a poor opinion on a story because that might upset the author?

I recently picked a story to read (not on this site) and there were reviews (it had been published on Amazon), these reviews were an interesting contrast to what you find here. The reviews for the story were mostly five star, but there was a three and a two and one star. These are extracts from a couple of the negative reviews: 

... the author could have benefited greatly had he elicited the help of a good editor. The language was stilted and false throughout. The descriptive passages were often amateurishly phrased and the dialogue was, now and again, untrue to the character's rhythms and speech patterns. 

This book was painful to read. The grammar is horrendous and many of the situations defy belief and comprehension. I really should have given this book a pass. I wish I could score it lower than one star.

As I said, the book also got lots of glowing five star reviews and scored an average 4.4 out of 5. My point is this: is there a place for negative reviews on GA? Why are there only positive four or five star reviews, maybe an occasional three star? What do you think, and how would you react to a negative book review? In the two examples given previously, the first extract was from a three star review with some positive points and saying you should read it despite the criticisms. The first extract went on to quote some examples of what was not the best writing, the second review extract simply slated the book, but even if that reader hated it and was not too nice in saying so, he/she's criticism was not without any foundation.

So should we give criticism of writing? I know of at least one site where the owner abhors story critiques, but what about here on GA? And if you wouldn't want to put your name to a negative or poorly scored book review of a fellow author, what about negative chapter comments?

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I think the nature of our community here on GA has something to do with it. We most of us know each other. Leaving a bad review on a story written by someone you know can feel disloyal, and the ones we don't know are newbies we don't want to discourage. I also think there's a tendency to stop reading a story you don't like, and since reviews can only be submitted once the story is complete, a person who quit reading halfway through is unlikely to go back to review the story after it's been completed. 

It's my experience that a lot of constructive criticism on this site tends to be delivered privately by PM rather than in comments or as reviews. I've done this on multiple occasions, with authors who asked or whom I knew could handle it. I wish we were all more open to both delivering and receiving criticism in public, but on the other hand, we are all happy amateurs or self-published authors here. A lot of us just write for the joy of it, and a negative review might spoil that joy.

Maybe instead of holding back on giving our honest opinions even when they're not glowing endorsements, authors who aren't prepared to receive less than favourable reviews should be able to disable reviews on their stories?

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This is part (if you like the bad part) of a review I received on another site for my book Milo.

Everyone important is established quickly and are dynamic with one another, though I think the story makes a mistake or two in taking time to reveal the adults' issues through their own eyes, instead of keeping the story limited to the children's perspectives alone. It ruins the mysteryand kills the potential to speculate alongside the characters since the audience already has the answers. Given how much of the story involves the teens speculating among themselves, it's toxic to an otherwise strong narrative- by the time the important characters discover something, it's long ago been revealed to the readers.

Not to say the adults don't have compelling drama in their own right... but it's such a different situation it might be better to write their story as a seperate parallel novel, or at least to focus on how adults and teens see the world differently. As the story currently stands, it detracts rather than enhances the experience.

It also has some difficulty transitioning from one scene to another, a difficult skill for anyone to master. It's most noticeable with the occasional short scenes that are little more than two or three paragraphs long.

Overall, a half-competent editor is all that's needed to take this to professional quality and beyond... but it does need edits to fix the pacing and trim the unnecessary material that detracts from everything the author gets right. There is a lot to appreciate about this work, and a little polish will make it shine.

There was a lot more to the review, very positive stuff, but the point is I did not take offence reading this part of the review, actually another review reinforced some of these comments. I don't want to discuss my book and my reviews; but what I feel is, that getting this feedback really helped me as an author. So I wondered if fellow authors wanted this kind of critical feedback. I understand the PM as a way to express criticism without going public, but it's limited. What I mean by that is, referring back to my own reviews again, the quoted review was in part reinforced by a second review, so having open reviews allows discussion, but of course nobody wants to lose a friend over a few negative comments. 

I do find it a little frustrating though, perhaps because I'm new to writing, but I might have something to say about something an author has written and I may or may not have a valid point to make. As another example, I read a well written short story on another site and commented that I thought it was well written, but very much a fantasy story that was make-believe, that real people would not be quite as they were written in the story, in the real world things would be less nice. Another reader commented that they thought it was quite real, and the author himself explained it was based in part on his own experience. So I had to revise my initial view, although I still had trouble agreeing it was a realistic scenario. Whether it was or wasn't, hardly matters, what was interesting was the discussion, in public. After all you can say something and still have the right to change your point of view - politicians do it all the time 😁

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Reviews are subjective. What one person considers Five Stars, another might consider One Star. For instance, I might be tempted to leave a Five Star review on a story that delivers a stellar story despite its flaws. In the end, its how the story made you feel, and that is what the review from your perspective should be about. For myself, I've ranged from Three to Five Star reviews here on GA. I know of a couple of people that routinely give Three or Four star reviews.

Thorn is right about normally people on GA practice the saying, "Criticize in private, praise in public." I've done that. But stopped after someone got super defensive about me sending them a PM.

Now, on another site, where you have to pay money for eBooks, and they are suppose to be "professionally" edited. I've posted some brutal reviews of stories. Here's an example of one I did for 18% Gray on Dreamspinner.

Spoiler

It took me a little over 12 hours to read it eCover to eCover. Somethings that were bad with it:

    Lack any sort of Worldbuilding. Outside of a few words, not even full sentences, that a war happened in the USA, prior to the split into two nations of the Red States vs the Blue States. There was nothing else about the setting the book was in.
    Blatant Liberal Bias. Blue states were Liberal, and therefore the good guys. Red states were Conservative, and therefore the bad guys.
    Lacked any detail. One of the protagonists lived in a 2-bedroom apartment. There you go, that was all the detail you got. It had a fridge because he took out two pouches of beer. (Pouches of beer? Why pouches? Oh, yeah, you don't know why, because there was no Worldbuilding. No Infodump to explain the world.)
    Main Characters were 23 and 25 years old respectfully. Both are covert-ops trained military veterans, who have seen combat action. (Wait? there's fighting between the Red and Blue? Oh, yeah, you don't know why, because there was no worldbuilding.) Used to go to high school together, and therefore, reverted back to High School personality.
    I'm not even going to comment on the Nymphomaniac Nun, from the Roman Catholic Church.
    Lots of interesting technology. But WTF is a crotch rocket? It has a shield of some sort, that you have to lift to get out of. I'm guessing it's some sort of motorcycle, that is fairly powerful, and can go off-roading.
    Red States are ultra poor, run down, and using tech 2 decades behind the Blue. But has AI drones, Directed Energy Weapons, Disruptor grenades, Digital Camo w/ thermal imaging blockers, and a slew of other things. AI satellite systems. But they don't believe in Global Warming, even though most of them are turning into an arid climate. Most people walk from city to city, and town to town because they can't afford other transportation.
    Red States practice forced Conversion Therapy on anyone that has the Gay Gene.
    Horrible Dialogue.
    Typos everywhere, and this was a "professionally done" and edited work.

 

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@Brayon out of interest, did any other reviews agree with what you said, in part or totally. The only thing I found wrong with what you had to say was that there was nothing positive. Was it that bad? Because reading what you said makes the book look like it was written by a child.

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5 minutes ago, Mikiesboy said:

I have read some not good work here and the comments are always.. Great Start .. Wonderful story can't wait for more.

I have read those early comments too, but I've also made the same comments myself only to find three chapters in I don't like it. It was promising, but went no where. I said nothing, just stopped reading, but I doubt that helped the author. I didn't know what to say.

For myself I was lucky enough to pick up first one, then two editors, who I couldn't do without. The second editor started as a beta reader, but soon transformed into editor. They have both changed what I originally wrote and pointed things out that have immensely improved my writing. I hope it shows in my next short book which is being edited now.

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1 minute ago, Talo Segura said:

I have read those early comments too, but I've also made the same comments myself only to find three chapters in I don't like it. It was promising, but went no where. I said nothing, just stopped reading, but I doubt that helped the author. I didn't know what to say.

For myself I was lucky enough to pick up first one, then two editors, who I couldn't do without. The second editor started as a beta reader, but soon transformed into editor. They have both changed what I originally wrote and pointed things out that have immensely improved my writing. I hope it shows in my next short book which is being edited now.

When i sent The Searcher to my editor ... he said.. OH, I love this.  That means basically he loves it.  And then he settles down and really reads it .. all of it.  And then he tells me what's wrong. There was a lot that needed doing .. it was okay as it was, but he saw things i didn't, and so i spent a good month fixing things, adding things.. all to make it better. 

i trust my editor completely and he's not mean or overly gentle with me.  He knows i want it right ... and it no longer bothers me. Because its the work, not my feelings that are important.  And that's how it should be ...it should be about the work, the piece we are putting out there.

 

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6 minutes ago, Talo Segura said:

@Brayon out of interest, did any other reviews agree with what you said, in part or totally. The only thing I found wrong with what you had to say was that there was nothing positive. Was it that bad? Because reading what you said makes the book look like it was written by a child.

On Dreamspinner, just some "this is really good" stuff. On Goodreads, there is both positive and negative reviews of 18% Gray with one person saying they loved the Worldbuilding. Made me wonder if we read the same book, because there wasn't any worldbuilding to the story. Was there some good to the book? Yeah, I liked the military and scifi aspect of it. Which is why I read it to begin with, and that it had a gay romance at its core. However, in my opinion, the bad out weight the good on that book.

There's a time and place for a minimalist approach to storytelling. But if you are selling the book at $6.99 a pop for digital, you damn well better paint a complete picture. Infodumps are the fucking bread and butter of Sci-Fi and Fantasy storytelling. If your Sci-Fi or Fantasy story doesn't have at least one infodump in it, to explain what's going on, then your book isn't worth me wiping my ass with it.

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9 minutes ago, Brayon said:

 

There's a time and place for a minimalist approach to storytelling. But if you are selling the book at $6.99 a pop for digital, you damn well better paint a complete picture. Infodumps are the fucking bread and butter of Sci-Fi and Fantasy storytelling. If your Sci-Fi or Fantasy story doesn't have at least one infodump in it, to explain what's going on, then your book isn't worth me wiping my ass with it.

I gotta say, I think there's a definite middle ground between minimalist storytelling and infodumps. All the best sci-fi and fantasy I've read has the worldbuilding organically interspersed throughout the story rather than presented in big chunks. There's nothing minimalist about it.

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16 minutes ago, Brayon said:

If your Sci-Fi or Fantasy story doesn't have at least one infodump in it, to explain what's going on, then your book isn't worth me wiping my ass with it.

I'm reading a Sci-fi story on here and I'm not a big Sci-fi reader, but it grabbed me I guess. It's turning out better than I expected, much better, although the author doesn't have too many comments, except mine. He has created the world, earth and another planet, slowly revealing them through the narrative and action. There is no info dump. Maybe you would like it, I'm wondering what you would make of it, Cold Hell by Valentine Davis.

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1 hour ago, Thorn Wilde said:

I gotta say, I think there's a definite middle ground between minimalist storytelling and infodumps. All the best sci-fi and fantasy I've read has the worldbuilding organically interspersed throughout the story rather than presented in big chunks. There's nothing minimalist about it.

Different strokes for different folks. Some of the best classic SciFi's have infodumps, and set the standard for it for the genre. See this article here: https://io9.gizmodo.com/20-great-infodumps-from-science-fiction-novels-5481558

To steal a line from that article, "Telling, then showing" is, in my opinion, the better way to go in a heavy Science Fiction or Fantasy environment.

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15 minutes ago, Brayon said:

Different strokes for different folks. Some of the best classic SciFi's have infodumps, and set the standard for it for the genre. See this article here: https://io9.gizmodo.com/20-great-infodumps-from-science-fiction-novels-5481558

To steal a line from that article, "Telling, then showing" is, in my opinion, the better way to go in a heavy Science Fiction or Fantasy environment.

Those aren't infodumps, though. The definition of infodumping is giving too much information too quickly. All those books (and I've read a few of them) present information organically, many through dialogue. An infodump is when you present all your worldbuilding in the first few pages. Much like people confuse omniscient third person with head-hopping, some confuse exposition in fantasy and sci-fi with infodumping. 

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I've been reading and listening to an ex-book editor for an Agent on topics of writing. I also learned that Authors who dictate what their readers are supposed to think, really can derail discussion. It seems such a minor thing really, that we authors answer questions in absolutes. For example, if someone was to ask, "Is so and so possibly Gay?" Albeit in this community where most stories are about LGBT characters, the answer to that question is likely easily answered. BUT if the author was to say, "No absolutely not," where there are minor/debatable evidences that opened up a discussion they have in a way derailed and left their readers a bit outside of the community box. I forget the terminology used to describe the scenario, but authors should look at reviews with an open mind good or bad or as off-base as they seem to be. I don't think authors should tell people that reviewers are completely wrong, that I wrote a specific story, and what I wrote from A to End is how it should be viewed, nothing outside of that should be considered plausible or debatable and so on. 

Here I feel there are more favorable reviews because the writing is for the most part Free by what would be considered niche and amateur fiction. So there is a bit of a mindset to give uplifting reviews instead of critically picking apart the story. In a way these aren't really all that beneficial for those writers who have ambitions beyond giving out writing for free via this platform, but to look into publishing for profit. Although - with self publishing platforms on the rise, you will see these sort of uplifting yet not-so critical reviews taking precedent away from really in-depth and critical reviews. People have a tendency to not want to quash a person's love for writing/creating. So even on platforms like Amazon or Goodreads you will see more positive reviews for something you may see as substandard or bad. Also you have to take into account whether or not those reviews - especially for small publishing/self publishing are genuine reviews or plants by supporters so that they can help make a story look more attractive to buyers. 

My own writing, the first 3ish - 4ish stories I posted on here are rough and really bad if I'm being 100% honest. Still, they get five star reviews and a lot of favorable comments. I tell the readers they are old and rough, so maybe they go in to the stories with that expectation - maybe I shouldn't, but I feel like a fair warning for some of my early works are warranted. :D 

I have bought a couple of self-published e-books and have just outright asked for my money back because I couldn't get through the first couple of chapters. These e-books had great reviews, part of the reason I bought them in the first place. Even with that said, I did not want to write my own review of the piece in the off chance that it just wasn't my thing and/or the storytelling and editing got better as the story progressed - as unlikely as that is. I also don't want to derail someone doing something that I don't think I am good enough of a writer to do and that is put it out there for people to actually pay money for... I don't want to take potential dollars away from people by writing a scathing review of a piece of work that I myself don't think is worthy of giving money towards. 

As an author/creator I would want to receive more critical reviews. Although if readers give me 100% favorable comments and then smack my story with 3 stars with no indication or provocation for that it WILL give me a complex not going to lie. 😄 

Here I 'only' do critical reading and reviewing if I am asked outright to do so. I do not consider myself a reader, I am here to discuss and to write. Neither of which I have done much of lately. ;) 

To Add, authors need to make more of a connection to the reviews when replying to them as well. I am bad for just saying, "Oh thank you for liking my story and reading!" with no real attempt to get to know the reviewers on any level. I should instead say something like, "Thank you for taking the time to read, I am glad you liked the story, what were some parts you really enjoyed? What can I work on? Is there something you didn't like at all?" They don't have to answer, but at least you've opened the door for some sort of discussion as corny as those questions seem. 😛 

Edited by Krista
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@Krista maybe the critique of stories needs to be placed in a story discussion thread where the author could ask specifically for a writing review intended to pick out good and bad, where to improve. In that case readers would not feel they were down grading a story or hurting an amateur writing career, but rather contributing?

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I think this happens for a few reasons: 

  1. A lot of writers post things just for fun. To that effect, a grammatically-correct first seems to be the high bar. The majority of writers on sites aren’t looking for critical advise or a deconstruction of their work. Some of us are specifically asking for it! In that case, it’s great. I think @Thorn Wilde has a good strategy of reaching out via PM (thanks, buddy!) 
  2. Reviewing is as much of a skill as writing. A lot of folks don’t feel comfortable with it (it’s something I’m purposely trying to be better at). It’s generally easier to talk about what you like vs effectively communicating what needs changes. 

I can’t speak specifically to the demographics of GA, but I post on another site that has a very large community. Prolific writers are experienced, but there’s also a considerable population that’s about high-school aged. Those authors absolutely lose it if they get any feedback that isn’t absolutely glowing. It caused drama all over the site, so I think people tend to defer to avoid all of that. 

But I think folks *truly* looking to do something with their writing are going to reach out and ask for critique. I know I’ll get there some day — hopefully soon! 

 

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Praise in public, criticize in private.  I do use this golden rule extensively.

When I was lab assistant for a photography lab, there was this one guy who was like BK was describing.  Most students, were expecting criticism to improve their photography, but some don't.  So while we're being the educators, it does require some humility if the point is to help the person improve.  Some people (typically younger folks, but not exclusively) are used to praised for anything they've done, so any criticism is considered personal.  Part of it is due to lack of experience and hiding of their own insecurities.  General forum would include even broader types of personalities than a closed lab, so keep that in mind.  Target different types with different approaches.

And yes, PM is is a good way.  I do think however, not to criticize to the point of being pedantic.  Most errors made (in a professional group) are in fact, careless error.  A simple mentioning like "be careful of the subject-verb agreement next time" or something similar is enough.  People are more likely to listen if they don't feel they're being undermined.  Nowadays I only criticize mission-critical errors.

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My college English professor used to write so many comments in red ink on my papers it looked like he bled all over the paper. I learned a lot from him and became a better writer. I think if you're looking to improve you're more willing to accept criticism. If you just want patted on the back you won't improve much. I've always appreciated Spikey's comments because he challenges me to think more deeply about my writing.

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