The readership is very small.

[Hero]

Taking a random look at published, publishing (ongoing) stories on the site, you can't help but reach the conclusion the number of readers is very small. The best an author might hope to achieve, is 1000 page views per chapter. 

Certainly, when you look at these numbers casually you see some large numbers, but look a little closer. A series author jdonley has written over 800,000 words in four books over several years and the number of readers is around 1000 page views per chapter per year. The numbers only look big over time. 

Take a well know author personality, Comicality, the numbers are ten times smaller and he has been writing online for over twenty years and writes about writing. I suppose if you add up all the numbers multiplied by the number of stories, you get some high figures, but divide them by chapters, by years, and it's miniscule! One book, on going, over ten years achieves 100 page views per chapter per year. 

Conclusion, the site online community is very small in terms of readership per author per book, what it achieves in site numbers overall is through the number of authors publishing as displayed on the front page. 100 page views per story chapter multiplied by 100, 200, or 1000 stories adds up, hence the site can support itself, advertising and premium membership. 

For the author, you need to be realistic, you may receive several chapter comments and a few (not very balanced for the most part) reviews, if you complete your story. You can have some contact with other authors and readers, which is not to be underestimated and can be valuable, but if you are thinking you will achieve any sort of real readership (as in a print addition from a publishing house) you are mistaken. 

In brief, being realistic, it is a lot of effort, hours of writing, a big investment, for very little return. Of course, nobody will tell you this and you can convince yourself you will get, or have, a large readership, but the numbers tell the real story.

[Mancunian]

You make some good points in your post, which could be important to some authors, especially if an author is writing to have his/her/they work put into print by a print house. The numbers are small compared to a global readership potential if they were printed in book form and published. They are also small compared to the global readership potential for those who read online. However, when taken in context to the size of the GA community some of the readership figures are phenomenal.

This brings me to my point in reply to your post. GA is not a publishing house it is a community. Authors post here for many varied reasons and are not necessarily concerned about having their work published. Some may have designs on becoming professional authors, using the GA community as a testing ground for their work. If that is the case I say good luck to them, I hope GA has been useful and helped them achieve their goal. However, I think that most of us are amateurs who enjoy writing for pleasure, although I could be wrong. Not all of us are interested in winning the Pulitzer Prize for Literature.

I can only speak for myself some authors will agree with me, others will not. I write for my own pleasure, it is something that I have come to enjoy, I do not write for profit or commercial gain. I also find pleasure in sharing the stories that I write and enjoy reading the stories written by others who wish to share, for some of us, it has a therapeutic value. I enjoy reading and leaving feedback on stories, the different opinions and points of view are interesting and sometimes enlightening, this interaction is part of the enjoyment and I value it. I'm not here to make mega-bucks, I'm here because I like and enjoy feeling like a part of the GA community.

3 hours ago, Hero said:

In brief, being realistic, it is a lot of effort, hours of writing, a big investment, for very little return. Of course, nobody will tell you this and you can convince yourself you will get, or have, a large readership, but the numbers tell the real story.

In reply to the above comment, I say this. The hours of work spent writing are a worthwhile investment in the GA community, the return is being part of a community that is accepting, the online friendships made and the non-judgemental support that many of us receive is a worthwhile return.

I did a blog over a year ago about why I joined GA, and a number of members commented in reply. If you follow the link you can read why I, and other members, joined and remain on GA.

 

[Mrsgnomie]

I’m sure there are authors that post here hoping to go big. If they do, they are posting their work several other places as well (as they should be if that’s the end goal). Mostly, I think we’re posting for the enjoyment. Writing is labor intensive but something we choose to do, much like people who draw, paint, crochet, etc and then post on Instagram or Facebook. GA is our artistic outlet and a great community.

With that said, publishers and scouts are very aware of GA. They’re on the site. If they see something they like, they’ll reach out to the author.

[Mikiesboy]

5 hours ago, Hero said:

For the author, you need to be realistic, you may receive several chapter comments and a few (not very balanced for the most part) reviews, if you complete your story. You can have some contact with other authors and readers, which is not to be underestimated and can be valuable, but if you are thinking you will achieve any sort of real readership (as in a print addition from a publishing house) you are mistaken. 

In brief, being realistic, it is a lot of effort, hours of writing, a big investment, for very little return. Of course, nobody will tell you this and you can convince yourself you will get, or have, a large readership, but the numbers tell the real story.

All this is true.

As has already been said, people write because they enjoy it. I don't think many are under any illusion that their stories will go any farther than here unless they post elsewhere or self publish. But here is being part of something, having friends and like-minded people who enjoy each other's company.

You're certainly welcome to post your opinions but I wonder what the point of this is?  Should people stop writing and creating because the numbers are small? 

If it was all about the numbers we would not have had Shakespeare or Van Gogh and countless other artist's and writer's works available to us now.

And you posting this, of course, has generated traffic and attention. So, there is that.

[Zombie]

1 hour ago, Mikiesboy said:

If it was all about the numbers we would not have had Shakespeare or Van Gogh and countless other artist's and writer's works available to us now.

actually Shakespeare was a very popular entertainer, earning good income from “ticket sales” to ordinary folk (but also a good businessman, exploiting his talent through theatre ownership and property investment - “managing your business” is definitely a key factor for successful authors)

And if writers are popular on GA that’s a definite positive if the creator is looking to move into “ticket sales”

[ROXMILLER]

You're not wrong, but like a previous commentor, I wonder what the point of this point is.  For authors to not share stories because they will not get 10k views per chapter? This post reads rather pessimistically. There are a ton of newer authors, people who do this for personal enjoyment. I did take a look at some of your reviews. One rather scathing 2 star review was for an authors first story on the site. Other readers will see that review and never give that story a chance. That author will never make the 1,000 read on his story. Hell, they may feel discouraged and never even write again. 

But maybe that's what this is all about? I'm not sure.

[Mikiesboy]

1 hour ago, Zombie said:

actually Shakespeare was a very popular entertainer, earning good income from “ticket sales” to ordinary folk (but also a good businessman, exploiting his talent through theatre ownership and property investment - “managing your business” is definitely a key factor for successful authors)

And if writers are popular on GA that’s a definite positive if the creator is looking to move into “ticket sales”

Duh.. of course you're right, Zombie.  i should know better than to read something and just react to it.. thanks for this. 

[Mrsgnomie]

1 hour ago, ROXMILLER said:

You're not wrong, but like a previous commentor, I wonder what the point of this point is.  For authors to not share stories because they will not get 10k views per chapter? This post reads rather pessimistically. There are a ton of newer authors, people who do this for personal enjoyment. I did take a look at some of your reviews. One rather scathing 2 star review was for an authors first story on the site. Other readers will see that review and never give that story a chance. That author will never make the 1,000 read on his story. Hell, they may feel discouraged and never even write again. 

But maybe that's what this is all about? I'm not sure.

I don't think he meant anything negatively. @Hero did his research and posted about it factually. It's possible there is no motive at all, just a general observation. I could be wrong, but I will always lead with grace and giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

[Mancunian]

30 minutes ago, Mrsgnomie said:

I don't think he meant anything negatively. @Hero did his research and posted about it factually. It's possible there is no motive at all, just a general observation. I could be wrong, but I will always lead with grace and giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

I agree with @Mrsgnomie, I don't think the post is intended in a negative way. I have intentionally treated it as a general observation and question. I have tried to answer the question that I think is being asked and hope that I have. I can only speak for myself, but I do feel that many others have the same, or similar, thoughts and feelings that I have expressed. GA is a welcoming community that I am happy to be a part of.

[Daddydavek]

Myr has statistics out the yazoo about the site, its readers, writers, commenters and supporters and has shared them in many ways and several times. To me, it's still an elusive question to account for the ebb and flow of visitors and readers.  Certainly some authors and their stories are big drivers.  However, it's the welcoming community that is the reason I visit regularly.  While I haven't been reading stories on site as much lately, that is due to my own personal circumstances and grief. 

 

 

 

[Mancunian]

5 minutes ago, Daddydavek said:

Myr has statistics out the yazoo about the site, its readers, writers, commenters and supporters and has shared them in many ways and several times. To me, it's still an elusive question to account for the ebb and flow of visitors and readers.  Certainly some authors and their stories are big drivers.  However, it's the welcoming community that is the reason I visit regularly.  While I haven't been reading stories on site as much lately, that is due to my own personal circumstances and grief. 

 

 

 

Remember @Daddydavek, your friends are here whenever you need us. 

[Backwoods Boy]

Given the readership statistics presented and, as pointed out, the high cost in terms of time and effort - in an undertaking clearly devoid of benefits - it would appear that writers of Gay literature are the largest collection of masochists ever gathered together in one domain.

Add to that the costs of non-constructive criticism, fear of rejection, domain "experts", and occasional outright abuse from a variety of sources, it's amazing that any of us bother.

To further support that scenario, another GA statistic derived in full from the Authors listing indicates that of the 1026 authors with listed stories, 423 wrote only one story, and less than half wrote more than two.  So, obviously, it's a dismal environment where only a few self-flagellating fools persist.

However, the apparent assumption that unattainable fame and fortune are the only benefits to be pursued is fortunately in error, as the other half have learned.  For most of us, this isn't a day job, but a hobby that reaps rewards such as friendship, knowledge, self-improvement, global understanding, and self-directed therapy in an environment where the members provide each other with support.

It took me several years to figure all that out.  I hope you get there sooner.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Backwoods Boy

[Ron]

5 minutes ago, Backwoods Boy said:

However, the apparent assumption that unattainable fame and fortune are the only benefits to be pursued is fortunately in error, as the other half have learned.  For most of us, this isn't a day job, but a hobby that reaps rewards such as friendship, knowledge, self-improvement, global understanding, and self-directed therapy in an environment where the members provide each other with support.

It took me several years to figure all that out.  I hope you get there sooner.

Hear, hear! I lurked (not a member) for about two years before joining up and my joining had a lot to do with the people on here (some who are, sadly, not with us anymore) and how they treated one another. Through the interaction of the membership, I've had the pleasure of experiencing so much of what you mention in the quoted text. Of course, this had/has a lot to do with the GA administrators. And I wanted to comment on what I was reading, too, because there are stories which are richly, emotionally moving, some are in fact enlightening, and others are well... darn amusing. There are some fine story tellers to be found here for sure and great community and it has been a rewarding experience for me.

[Myr]

I'm starting to feel like the old man on the rocker shaking his cane yelling at people to get off the lawn...

When I started Gay Authors in late 2002, we had Nifty and a scattering of other sites and it was still possible to own all the Gay books on Amazon without busting the bank.  It was exceptionally difficult to get gay stories commercially.  And in the good old days before Kindle, we were the easiest way to find great gay stories that had plot.  Since Kindle came along, you can now choose to directly publish and sink or swim on your own.  Great stuff.  If you have that skill set, by all means, go take advantage of it.  If you are growing to fill that skill set, then posting short stories on sites like ours to build an audience is just good business. 

For the rest of us we are a niche hobby writing site with a great community.

So long as that is sustainable, we will be here.  If authors enjoy what we have here, than great. If they yearn for more, the world's out there.

[Hero]

In reply to anyone who asked the point of the thread, I was thinking that a larger audience is possible for any author addressing a wider audience and a wider audience really means encompassing the world at large where being gay is a minority. My thought was around expanding stories to include straight characters who play an important role, to have a gay theme, but set in a more realistic perspective, essentially thinking about attracting that wider audience and moving away from the gay sex in every chapter. My thought is that the gay storyline can be more powerfully stated when not every character is gay and secondary characters are developed. A few stories do this, but not too many.

Regarding reviews, I was in touch with the author mentioned and I am not sure what to say here. Most reviews I read are 5 star praise, when (do I have to apologise?) in my opinion that is not merited, there is very little negative criticism (is this to be avoided?). I only started with reviews because someone said it was a positive thing to do and they too didn't think 5 stars every time was reflective of every story. That said, I agree a negative review can be discouraging and probably was as I didn't here back (yet) from the author mentioned. However, I would add, he asked for more detail on the points I made and I wrote a long (I think nice) personal message detailing how I thought the story (any story) could be improved.

Finally, the hobby writing amateur publishing online, part of a little community is great. Perhaps in my head I am too ambitious in wanting to see books, stories, that address a wider readership.

That aspect of writing being therapeutic I can understand, but not quite see how it fits and honestly there was one story in the recent secret author stories that exposed the author's psych I'm not sure I wanted to see.

Surely, and this is a question, you need to be honest in making points, posting reviews, and having an ambition to encourage writers to bigger numbers by diversifying out of the gay story cliche is not a bad thing? Still, some will be put out when you don't write fantastic story, loved every minute!

[lawfulneutralmage]

This is an excellent discussion, people! This is indeed a good community.

As the first time author in question, please let me say that, first, the story was published as part of the Secret Author contest, so no reviewer could have known it was my first one, and also, I was cheeky there, because till the author reveal, I did not have the "Author" attribute either, so people could not even have guessed that I even might have participated.

Going into a challenge, I was ready for feedback, also given the, let's say not uncontroversial, content. I am actually very pleased that it did so well! I was prepared for outrage.

The issue that threw me was that there was no further detail on feedback. I asked for details, and @Hero provided something I can work with. Thanks again!

Some time ago, I asked on the writer's blog what would make a good review. I think we should have this discussion. I must admit that Hero's observation of the "All or no stars" reviews is more or less correct. I am "guilty" of that as well. I rather do not give a "bad" review i.e. low stars, mostly because I read this site on the phone, and the commenting mechanism on the phone seems broken for me. Maybe I need to put some time aside for that like I do right now. Time, precious time... to where do you run off?

On the other hand, there is the aspect of the community. This is a great place, because one is not "ripped apart" for a first time effort by people who have authored successfully for umteen years. As stated by others before, not everyone wants to be come a professional author. I have no such plans, but I have (hopefully) indicated that I am interested in constructive feedback.

Also, feedback should distinguish between story content and crafting skill. Good stories can be badly written and vice versa.

Edited July 30, 2023 by lawfulneutralmage
Published in the middle of writing

[Myr]

One person's "constructive feedback" is another person's "Obnoxious moron is whining again".  Such feedback is provided privately, not publicly due to the issues this causes from a moderation stand point.  This tends to be translated on site to: "comment on positive aspects and communicate privately with the author on negative aspects, if said author is interested".  We do have a Critique Room set up for more active communication.  It's been quiet for awhile though:

 

[LemonSoda]

Isn't a limited audience the trend across all media? Attention is in high demand, there's more access to both other people's creations and the means to create, and only a tiny minority of any creators in any field will see much of an audience. That said, if I imagine a thousand hits as a thousand individual humans in the room with me that actually freaks me out a little. I prefer to create for a smaller, more limited audience myself. The knowledge that it's a nearly impossible fight to get seen even for people who desperately want attention is the only thing that has ever made me comfortable sharing any creations online. (I assume some of the page views are web crawlers and not actual humans but the point remains: a thousand people in the same room with me would be far too many.) 

As for reviews and feedback: 

Reviews are for potential readers. Concrit is for the writers. When the writers can see the reviews you're not going to get honesty in most cases because people are bad at writing an honest review if they are friends with or like someone or if there might be reciprocal reviewing. And I've seen the insane way some professional authors react to negative reviews they had to deliberately seek out, so I can't blame people who only write gushing 5 star reviews in scenarios where the authors will definitely see the reviews. 

I've also found that most amateur writing spaces don't do well with "unsolicited concrit" because apparently many people think it is obviously socially unacceptable to critique work that was posted. I used to think "Well you posted in this writing space, how is that not soliciting concrit!!!" and other people would say "I can't believe it isn't obvious to you why that is rude!!!!" well the why remains non-obvious but the fact that other people react poorly to it is very obvious by now. So now if I say anything negative it is my emotional reactions to the characters (and thus not intended as any sort of critique of the story itself; I like having strong "WTF ARE YOU DOING" reactions to characters.) 

I do appreciate the one small crit group I'm in that made the "no unsolicited concrit" expectation explicit--when someone shares a WIP they have to state upfront if they want support or critique so it isn't on the rest of us to hope we intuited correctly about social mores. I think that should be more widely adopted. Put the onus on writers to tell readers what type of feedback they're looking for. 

[Myr]

21 minutes ago, LemonSoda said:

I assume some of the page views are web crawlers and not actual humans but the point remains: a thousand people in the same room with me would be far too many.) 

The common bots should mostly be filtered out.

25 minutes ago, LemonSoda said:

obviously socially unacceptable to critique work that was posted.

It is Gay Authors policy be default that positive things can be said publicly and harsher feedback can be shared via PM if an author is interested.

I am looking at better ways to deal with feedback and the type the author is interested in getting.

[ReaderPaul]

Lots of good points in the discussion above.  Here are my ideas.

Point 1 -- Most of the time I will vote with my presence or absence.  If I like a story or poem or non-fiction, I will write a mostly positive review.  If I don't like something, I will probably not seek out that author's work again for some time because of time constraints In Real Life (IRL).  At times I have read something I was not impressed with, but later a friend has said, you should read "x" because of (reasons a, b, and c).  The second or third read I was more "caught" by the author's content in that story or poem or non-fiction item, and started making time to look for that author.

Point 2 -- I have seen stories -- here and on other sites -- which I liked, but evidently the author changed their mind about and pulled the story.  When this happens with an unfinished story, it can be disconcerting.  But I am not the author.  It is THEIR story.  I can hope for it to appear again in revised form.  Not likely, I know -- but possible.

Point 3 -- The writing standards on GA are higher than the majority of sites.  By that I mean the technical aspects of writing -- mostly correct grammar, spelling, and punctuation.  This makes a story easier to read for me.

Point 4 -- Some authors are -- possibly -- overly protective of their works.  By that I mean they "bristle"  with almost any criticism or comment not presented in glowing positive cheering terms.  Some years back, an author told a different GA member than me (that member had complained to the author that he had too many straight persons in a particular story) -- that in everyday life there are more people who consider themselves straight than those who consider them selves gay, lesbian, or in my case, bi.  This author politely said that he writes with the expectation that those of us in the LGBTQI+ community will be interacting with straight persons much of the time

Point 5 -- There are many types of stories, poems, and non-fictions here on GA.  If we something find we do not have an attraction to -- try something else.  Try a different category, a different author, or even take a couple of days break from reading.

Edited July 30, 2023 by ReaderPaul
add missing word; correct two spelling errors

[LemonSoda]

2 hours ago, Myr said:

It is Gay Authors policy be default that positive things can be said publicly and harsher feedback can be shared via PM if an author is interested.

I am looking at better ways to deal with feedback and the type the author is interested in getting.

oh no this was in the guidelines I had to read before signing up, wasn't it. Swiss cheese brain strikes again. Thank you for reminding me and apologize that you needed to. 

27 minutes ago, ReaderPaul said:

Point 4 -- Some authors are -- possibly -- overly protective of their works.  By that I mean they "bristle"  with almost any criticism or comment not presented in glowing positive cheering terms.  Some years back, an author told a different GA member than me (that member had complained to the author that he had too many straight persons in a particular story) -- that in everyday life there are more people who consider themselves straight than those who consider them selves gay, lesbian, or in my case, bi.  This author politely said that he writes with the expectation that those of us in the LGBTQI+ community will be interacting with straight persons much of the time

LOL this actually is a good reminder that sometimes things I dislike about stories were intentional authorial choices and not problems to be fixed. 

[Zombie]

5 hours ago, Myr said:

It is Gay Authors policy be default that positive things can be said publicly and harsher feedback can be shared via PM if an author is interested.

I am looking at better ways to deal with feedback and the type the author is interested in getting.

If I don’t fess up in this particular thread I never will. 

I used to be a prolific reader here (+other sites) and would give regular feedback. But, as has been noted, feedback is pretty much relentlessly enthusiastic (or at least it was in the stories I was reading) and this seemed to be expected. I’m not a demonstrative person anyway, so relentless enthusiasm would give me cognitive dissonance

Even with excellent, highly engaging stories there would be elements that disappoint (writing, plot, characters etc) - but these writers were giving me their work free, gratis and for nothing so wouldn’t it be churlish to be negative? The few times I steeled myself to venture “constructive feedback” in comments or PM the response (or lack of) was thanks, but no thanks.

So at some point I stopped giving feedback. Then I felt bad about not giving feedback. Then I just stopped reading here. I know this wasn’t the only reason I stopped (other factors were in play), but it was contributory. I still love the GA site and happily post “community” stuff, but this is a story website and I can fully understand if some would see me as a parasite. Anyway, like I said, I felt I should make this confession.

[W_L]

With the return of my visual acuity to a level equal to my high school self, I picked up published novels, manga, and Anime again, rather than reading via large print or text to speech that I used for GA. I still write, but I'm trying to catch up on a decade of material I had not been able to access for a long time (including several LGBT publications). It's a shift in mentality and reading approach.

Online written stories are still great, but capturing my attention is much harder nowadays with the plethora of content. Wattpad, AO3, and elsewhere are all dividing up the readership. GA has a niche of certain kinds of authors and stories so we're essentially competing with the bigger communities that also incorporate LGBT stories.

Also, reading Amazon Kindle titles is only one published outlet for gay readers, I've been following gay authors on https://www.smashwords.com/ as well, they're not all well known authors with big names or even Amazon algorithms backing, but I like exploring alternative authors and trends.

--------

Bottom line, you have to hook me with a concept and keep me reading with a story

 

[Mancunian]

As an author, albeit not one of the best on GA, I welcome feedback and comments, including those that are tactful and constructive criticism. I feel that all authors should be prepared for the fact that not every comment or review will be a glowing recommendation. That being said, there are times when comments and/or reviews are neither tactful nor constructive, they are worded as a scathing attack. If any comments/reviews are like that I will ignore them although it is possible that they are not intended as a scathing attack, it may be a poor choice of words or phrases, but they can still hurt. I would ask that any reader who feels that they have a criticism to make do so with tact and diplomacy and think about their choice of words and/or phrases and do that with care. I welcome good constructive criticism, which is sometimes better to be sent via message and not made public. But I do not welcome or condone scathing attacks. Readers, please think before you write or post criticism and choose your words carefully.

Some of my work has been poorly written, this spoils a good story, but very few people have commented on this and when I read those stories it hurts because I now see how badly they were written. It is a learning curve for me and I am trying to improve, good helpful constructive criticism will help with that. I am also trying to improve the stories that I have already posted by revising and editing them, they may not be perfect but they will be better. I am an amateur who writes as a hobby for enjoyment, I am not a professional author. This applies to almost all of us who post stories here, so please remember that when you comment.

[W_L]

1 hour ago, Mancunian said:

As an author, albeit not one of the best on GA, I welcome feedback and comments, including those that are tactful and constructive criticism. I feel that all authors should be prepared for the fact that not every comment or review will be a glowing recommendation. That being said, there are times when comments and/or reviews are neither tactful nor constructive, they are worded as a scathing attack. If any comments/reviews are like that I will ignore them although it is possible that they are not intended as a scathing attack, it may be a poor choice of words or phrases, but they can still hurt. I would ask that any reader who feels that they have a criticism to make do so with tact and diplomacy and think about their choice of words and/or phrases and do that with care. I welcome good constructive criticism, which is sometimes better to be sent via message and not made public. But I do not welcome or condone scathing attacks. Readers, please think before you write or post criticism and choose your words carefully.

Some of my work has been poorly written, this spoils a good story, but very few people have commented on this and when I read those stories it hurts because I now see how badly they were written. It is a learning curve for me and I am trying to improve, good helpful constructive criticism will help with that. I am also trying to improve the stories that I have already posted by revising and editing them, they may not be perfect but they will be better. I am an amateur who writes as a hobby for enjoyment, I am not a professional author. This applies to almost all of us who post stories here, so please remember that when you comment.

Well said, I will add one corollary to this:

When I review full novels, I usually provide detailed explanation on why I made my final judgement. Yes, there's some bias and arbitrary elements within my reviews, but also, I hope if the author's ever read my long reviews, they see I was critiquing their work as a peer and reader. I may not be one of the best writers either, but expressing an opinion based on thousands of stories read as experience is hopefully worthwhile.

For me, on reviewers and writers alike, criticism should be given and taken it, but explain why you feel what you do just as I have. It enriches both of our experiences. I welcome folks critiquing, but explain your opinion whether it is bias or not, examine the reasons for your rating of a story.