Should there be only "Gay" places?

[W_L]

Something that has been circling my mind recently as I am dating and engaged, should there be places just for us? This not a political issue, but one that I think a lot of people of different backgrounds have had to deal with.

 

Personally, I am not in favor of separate facilities for people, nor am I in favor of practices segregating people like restaurants of putting gay couples away from eye view of other customers, which I am learning is more and more frequent than I thought even in Liberal Massachusetts. It's not direct homophobia, but it is no less prevalent or apparent than someone calling you F word in public. The worst thing is that no one is around to support you.

 

Is it nicer being around other people like you at LGBT friendly restaurant/cafe? Definitely, and you can definitely tell, when you are welcomed, especially with a guy in drag making jokes a few feet away.

 

After the food court episode, we've been more conservative and kept our tongues safely apart in restaurants and only kiss in parks with few people around or dark movie theaters. I don't know if it's just the vibe we give off or the body language or in my choices of restaurants, which have Zagat ratings and a few stars (Yes, I do eat well sue me ), but it's kind of isolating. Starbucks and movies are cool for smaller dates, but beyond that, all couples need to find a place to call their own.

 

And I doubt I am the only one with this problem, I remember this clip from "what would you do" that kind of highlights the problem, it's not as openly hostile but it's still kind of isolating

 

[Brayon]

Private Member clubs are something that does exist. Having Private Gay clubs would be fine, and there are already several across the US. In FL we have several campgrounds and bathhouses that cater to GLBT only. Most, of course, are 21-years-old+.

[Dodger]

This is a good topic. I forgot to vote so I'll do it after. I don't believe segregating people but I do feel more comfortable in a mostly gay establishment or part of town. There are certain places where I know for sure I will be welcomed and looked after but I don't like the idea of gay only. In England, the best nightclubs are generally gay. I know it's a sweeping statement but it's true and a lot of these clubs operate a strict gays only policy on the door.

 

This created problems for me because most of my friends were straight. I persuaded them one night to go to one of these clubs and they enjoyed themselves so much they wanted to keep going back. I know, I was dubious too!  To get in, of course, they had to pretend to be gay which was quite bizarre because there were a lot of straight guys doing the same. The security knew it and would try to weed them out from the line up. If someone was suspected of being straight, they would have to answer a series of ridiculous questions designed to 'out' them. Like what park was gay pride held in this year or what music do you listen to? Who's your favourite pop star? WTF? This is absolutely true! It was entertainment on its own and worth lining up in the poring rain for. I'm pretty sure however, that a lot of gay people were refused entry because they didn't fit the stereotype.

 

The prize for any hetero who managed to outsmart the doormen was a dark, sweaty basement filled with gay men and women dancing topless to deafening drum and bass. Oh and a handful of straight guys who were smart enough to answer Kylie Minogue as their favourite pop star.

 

I have since ditched this frenetic lifestyle and in favour of a more subdued approach. I prefer restaurants now to clubs and bars but I still wouldn't feel comfortable in a gay only establishment.  

[Carlos Hazday]

I came across this Advocate article recently while researching mixed bars. Found it interesting and it somewhat relates to the question. It bemoans the infiltration of gay spaces by straights. It also explores the idea only gay men can completely relate to other gay people. Someone once mentioned to me she knew how men talked to men because she had been involved in a sibling's sport. What she failed to realize was as soon as a female's present, the conversation between males changes.

 

https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2017/8/08/straight-folks-there-are-some-spaces-you-dont-belong

 

[Puppilull]

Well, I'm straight and a woman, so I probably don't belong here... But I'm also a lawyer and can't shut up.

 

I've thought a bit about this, since friends who are gay have expressed sadness over strictly gay places disappearing. To me, it can be seen as a natural result of LGBT being more accepted in society. When you are no longer "the odd one" there's no need for special clubs or such. We blend together. 

 

Is this good or bad? I don't know. To me, though, I'm not a fan of separate spaces. We are all humans and it makes more sense to me if we socialize with people who we connect to rather than those who perhaps only share our sexuality. I mean, I don't enjoy hanging out with all straight people, so why would the LGTB community be much different? Then, at the same time, I can understand the need to be among people where no explanation or similar is needed. Where you can be the majority. It's of course difficult for me truly to grasp this, but I think I can at least sense it.

 

To hear some couples are hidden away is just appalling and plain wrong.

 

So it's understandable that the disappearance of special clubs is a sad occurrence for some. I just wish they wouldn't be needed in the first place. But we have a way to go until we are there. 

[Cia]

You mean like restaurants or cafes or clubs or stores that fly giant rainbow flags on top so you know it's an establishment that's basically owned by/for purchasing things gay-friendly/specifically welcoming people who are gay or gay-friendly and not somewhere you're going to experience homophobia unless some random asshat comes in and acts like a jerk because it's flying a giant gay flag and is a place that caters to those who are gay or gay friendly...? 

 

Yeah, those are fairly common here in the Pacific NW in the larger cities. Or, like the large community area(s) where the community tends to be very gay-centric Matt mentioned in his Do You Identify As Gay? topic. 

[Graeme]

I have no problem with gay-friendly places. In some very limited circumstances, a gay-only place is okay, but generally I'm against the idea, just like I'm against white-only establishments or men-only establishments.

 

Women-only gyms are an example of an exception I'm happy with, and I'm sure there are others, but as a general principle, to have an X-only place requires a justification for excluding others that don't fit into that category.

[W_L]

2 hours ago, Cia said:

You mean like restaurants or cafes or clubs or stores that fly giant rainbow flags on top so you know it's an establishment that's basically owned by/for purchasing things gay-friendly/specifically welcoming people who are gay or gay-friendly and not somewhere you're going to experience homophobia unless some random asshat comes in and acts like a jerk because it's flying a giant gay flag and is a place that caters to those who are gay or gay friendly...? 

 

Yeah, those are fairly common here in the Pacific NW in the larger cities. Or, like the large community area(s) where the community tends to be very gay-centric Matt mentioned in his Do You Identify As Gay? topic. 

 

They exist here in Boston as well, there's a breakfast brunch buffet place that I've been dying to try out, if I can ever get him to wake up early enough.

 

I'm not a big club guy, dancing is fun and all, but that never appealed to me.  I prefer spending time in a giant bookstore, museum, or flea markets. Restaurant wise, I like New American, Asian Fusion, Rustic Italian, and simple French cuisines.

 

@Puppilull Gay-Only establishment should be something from a bygone era, but we're still far from a "blended" society. Chain restaurants are okay as no one cares about you or who you are eating with, but higher end establishments are as "old fashioned" in mindset as they are in their traditional methods of cooking. Even shopping is kind of haphazard, I don't know why we went into Bloomingdale a few weeks ago (I joked with him that I thought they had gone out of business) but the mentality of the sale staff was kind of "off" seeing two guys walk in with interlocking arms. Now at Macy's, I've seen guys doing the same thing witho0ut an issue and I even got a discount card from a sales guy (obviously on our team) that I got a new pair of Nike.

 

Maybe as I am getting older, I am just noticing this stuff more.

[Kitt]

Again, a straight female - but here is my two bits.

 

 

If there were white only restaurants there would be hell to pay.

When there were separate restrooms for blacks and whites, there was hell to pay.

If a restaurant turned gay couples away there would be hell to pay.

Guess what my opinion of a gay only restaurant would be.

 

Ever hear of reverse discrimination?

[Carlos Hazday]

Sorry ladies but I don't ever want to run into any of you at a bathhouse or sex club. So there's an example of a place that should be for gay men only.

 

And as much as I would probably enjoy hanging out or maybe even going for a motorcycle ride with you, I like the fact my motorcycle club restricts membership to gay men. Whenever we have female guests at a gathering, the dynamics change and not always for the better.

[Kitt]

Private clubs and public forums are very different.

[Puppilull]

4 hours ago, Kitt said:

Private clubs and public forums are very different.

 

I agree. I'm sure there are legitimate reasons to have a secluded spot or two. But I think we should consider which we are ok with. To let it go too far would easily open a door to pointing groups out as different and from there the step is all too short to different in a negative way. I'm not too crazy about all female gyms, though I can understand the demand. Or all female bath times, though in Sweden with lakes everywhere, it's important everyone learns to swim. Even those girls who aren't allowed to mingle with boys in swimwear. But we have fought so hard and come a long way. I don't want to lose that.

 

And @W_L, I guess I'm writing from a Swedish perspective, but I find it so difficult to imagine any high-end establishment here treat gay people badly. I know there are individuals who do, but generally I'd say they want that pink money. 

[Tiger]

6 hours ago, Kitt said:

If there were white only restaurants there would be hell to pay.

When there were separate restrooms for blacks and whites, there was hell to pay.

 

Yeah, there's fallout from a situation in another country I'm watching very closely for that very reason. Disclusion is generally a bad thing, except excluding children from clearly adult-oriented activities. 

[Brayon]

I refer back to my earlier post about Private Member Clubs. These Clubs can be anything, in fact, I know of a guy that is looking into a restaurant that will be a private member club for anyone 18 years old, and older. Or A/K/A, a restaurant that is Adults Only, no kids. For a $1.50 membership fee added to your bill, you too can dine without kids. Your membership lasts for the duration of one meal. I honestly don't know if he'll be successful at it, but it is an idea.

[Pmsingtiger]

No because then I can’t technically come hang out ☹️ 

Also because I believe equality comes with not segregating yourself into use only groups. To be equal we must all coexist together and learn about each other. 

[cognac69]

The question is do you think there should be separate establishments for LGBT members. Well for me the answer to that is no.

But there is another question here also which is, is there a need for separate establishments for LGBT members. Due to discrimination and lack of acceptance the answer is yes.

What is really needed and I feel is wanted by many from the LGBT community is acceptance.

Sorry everyone now I'll get off my soap-box.

 

[Arpeggio]

I'm for gay friendly but not gay exclusive. 

[Freerider]

I think gay exclusive has its own important role to play. 

 

The idea that segregation and equality don't go together is wrong.

Being equal does not mean being the same. It means being treated the same.

People saying/writing that gays should not separate themselves every now and then because they want to be equal, really do not understand it.

Basically they are advocating to just be like the majority...... so get back in the f*cking closet and you will be equal!

 

Think about the message you are giving!

[TetRefine]

I can't think of anything that was once gay that got better when it became more "mixed". I'll use my once-favorite club here as an example. When I first started going in college, it was almost entirely gay and the best place to drink, dance, cruise, and hang out. Starting about a year and a half ago, more and more straight women started to show up because they realized gay clubs are just better and there are no straight men to bother them. The atmosphere slowly began to change as more and more women invaded the space. When things really started to go downhill was when the straight men began showing up with their girlfriends. Suddenly there were more fights, more sloppy behavior, and a much more "I'm insecure so I have to act super macho" attitude that has completely ruined the place. In the space of a year and a half, it went from the most popular gay club in the city to one where very few go anymore.

 

I spend most of my day in a straight world surrounded by straight people doing things by straight-decided rules. I want to spend some time around people who just get it in an atmosphere created and ruled by our version of life. We screwed ourselves by begging straight people to accept us by using the "we're just like you" tag as a tool. Now our once unique identity and culture is being overrun and watered down by those very people we begged to accept us in the first place. 

 

God forbid straight people can't have 100% of the world. 😒

[TetRefine]

On 8/16/2018 at 5:08 AM, Freerider said:

I think gay exclusive has its own important role to play. 

 

The idea that segregation and equality don't go together is wrong.

Being equal does not mean being the same. It means being treated the same.

People saying/writing that gays should not separate themselves every now and then because they want to be equal, really do not understand it.

Basically they are advocating to just be like the majority...... so get back in the f*cking closet and you will be equal!

 

Think about the message you are giving!

 

Exactly! 

[cognac69]

The variety of responses to this shows how much of an emotive topic this can be. I based my response on living in world no and how it was in the past. From that perspective Gay only and Gay friendly establishments are wanted and needed, due to both feelings of comfort and belonging as well as feelings of discrimination. Yes there is some reverse discrimination mainly brought about by self preservation which is natural. The need and possibly the want will not go away until acceptance is total, but total acceptance is probably being idealistic and may never happen. It certainly won't in my lifetime. 

One thing that doesn't help is the straight people that go to gay clubs and bars and then complain and cause trouble because they don't like to see gay people showing affection. This is happening more and more in the UK, what the hell do they expect? If they don't like it then don't bloody go there.

My point of acceptance is idealistic and probably will never happen. That being the case, Gay only and Gay friendly will always be wanted and needed.

 

[Brayon]

3 hours ago, TetRefine said:

I can't think of anything that was once gay that got better when it became more "mixed". I'll use my once-favorite club here as an example. When I first started going in college, it was almost entirely gay and the best place to drink, dance, cruise, and hang out. Starting about a year and a half ago, more and more straight women started to show up because they realized gay clubs are just better and there are no straight men to bother them. The atmosphere slowly began to change as more and more women invaded the space. When things really started to go downhill was when the straight men began showing up with their girlfriends. Suddenly there were more fights, more sloppy behavior, and a much more "I'm insecure so I have to act super macho" attitude that has completely ruined the place. In the space of a year and a half, it went from the most popular gay club in the city to one where very few go anymore.

The same thing happened to a Gay Club here in Ybor City called Tracks. Best club in Ybor at the time was exclusively gay... then the straights came in. It shut down, within a year of the gays leaving it. Never got to go, but oh so wanted too, growing up. Even now, other gay clubs in Ybor City has a lot of Straights going to it. Hamburger Mary's is one that comes to mind with the drag shows.

[AusGlitterati]

When I'm not demeaned or harassed because my voice, mannerisms and dress sense are all pretty effeminate and when I'm not in danger of being assaulted or killed for my sexual orientation, then and only then will I agree that LGBT+ friendly/exclusive places aren't necessary. They give me security and confidence that is so easily (and often) taken from me in the straight world. Pretty much the whole world caters to the heteronormative even today, so I don't think for a second that having some safe spaces for the LGBT+ community is a bad thing. 

[Freerider]

For the record: I can't vote here, because I am not an author. Just consider the count for the Yes-vote one higher

[TalonRider]

@Freerider:  Now granted that the majority commenting here are Authors, there's nothing that says you can't participate in the poll question.