Porn: Evil, good, or none of the above?

[Adam Phillips]

I didn't want to continue to hijack Graeme's thread--which was about his son, not about the merits or evils of porn per se--but the discussion got me thinking about porn, and it also got me  thinking about how difficult it is to devise reliable instruments to assess whether or not porn is harmful. Or helpful, for that matter. So I thought I'd just muse a little "out loud," so to speak, and invite others to chime in. It's all anectodal, and it's based on what I've experienced and seen others experience, so anything I say could be total crap. But I'm gonna say it anyway.

 

Every male I know past a certain age has had at least some exposure to porn, and the vast majority has sought it out. And it's everywhere, and there's no way, short of taking the doors off rooms, installing video cameras in every corner of your house, and installing a tracking chip in your kid, that you can absolutely insure that boys past a certain age will have zero chance for exposure to porn.

 

I've been looking at porn since I was thirteen. I still look at it. I'm now married and have two kids. I have another permanent intimate relationship outside my marriage, with my best friend from childhood, but that's also a stable and good thing. And both my wife and his know about it. And beyond that, my wife knows I look at porn sometimes. Hell, sometimes she even looks at it with me. It's not an obsession, and it's not something I feel as though I have to pry myself away from. I use it sometimes for enjoyment. What I'm trying to say is that I think I have a stable, responsible, and productive approach to my love life and sex life. I don't feel that porn damaged me as a kid or damages me now.

 

I want to speak to the issue of porn's alleged tendency to desensitize viewers and the alleged tendency for vanilla porn to seduce viewers into rougher, vile porn--and then into vile real-world sexual activity. From there I want to look at its alleged characteristic of always portraying sex and relationship in toxic ways, its alleged without-exception degradation of women, and its alleged basis in power and abuse of power rather than in intimacy, or even in sex per se.

 

First of all, it seems to me that these generalizations get applied across the board and universally, when they do, by extrapolating from people who have gotten fixated and harmed by porn or have done harmful things with others because of their use of porn, whether in its vanilla flavors or its more extreme, clearly toxic forms. In many other theoretical contexts we're well aware of the flawed logic of that kind of thinking; but because we're all so spooked by the awful things that can happen when sexuality goes awry and when there are predators out there ready to exploit people's sexuality, I think we're susceptible to panicked and less-than-clear reasoning on this.

 

You want to talk de-sensitization? I think it's actually dangerous to characterize these potentially disastrous consequences of porn as something inherent in porn and in the porn-viewing experience. Because I think when people then view porn and realize that lo and behold the sky hasn't fallen after all, then they become de-sensitized to any kind of caution and assume that since the naysayers "lied" to them about what was going to happen, obviously porn is completely benign and there's nothing to watch out for.

 

As for the supposed de-sensitization that porn causes rather than the de-sensitization that anti-porn propaganda causes, what I hear lies along two lines: First, the claim that extreme, toxic types of porn can desensitize a person to to the outrageousness of that toxic porn and to "normal," healthy sex and sexuality. Secondly, the claim that steady exposure to even "normal" porn will blunt a person's desire for actual sex and lovemaking, especially because in porn we typically only watch amazingly hot people doing sexual things, and our own sex lives are not always going to be filled with amazingly hot people.

 

As for the first allegation, I'll make this self-observation. There are many kinds of porn that gross me out. Have I deliberately viewed some of these types? Sure. Usually only once. Depending on what it is, either the revulsion factor or the boredom factor kicks in pretty quickly. My point: When people go overboard on, god forbid, snuff porn, or scat, or s&m, or whatever...it's because there's something inside them that already leans in that direction. The icky porn did not take a "normal" person and pervert their desires. It's misguided to blame the icky porn for that. Does the icky porn amp up the desire of the person who likes it and make it more likely that he'll indulge in that in the real world? Nobody knows at this point, I think. But it seems at least equally plausible that if that a person could sate his desire for the icky thing by participating in it safely and vicariously through viewing icky porn, it might possibly make him less likely to do it in real life. And there's no way to test this out, because if there are people who are actually helped in this way, they are, obviously, unknown to us. We never see them or hear from them because their weird kink has no real-world visibility.

 

As far as weirdness in porn goes, my opinion is that if it's not illegal or clearly dangerous, one person's "ick factor" is another person's fetish, and no big deal. For example: God knows why, but I have an "armpit thing." Hairy or shaved, male or female, armpits do it for me, lol. And I have no idea why. For some people that's gross. Others out there "get it." It's not all that uncommon. For others, feet get them off. I can't relate; feet do nothing for me. It seems weird. But whatever. In any case, my exposure to "porn armpits" has not translated into being obsessed with armpits in real-world sex and lovemaking. Likewise, watching hot people get sexual in porn has not blunted my desire for real world sex with real world partners. To be honest, my two lifelong sex partners are as hot as any porn star!! lol In my opinion, anyway. But I've also watched and enjoyed porn featuring "average" people. I watch porn, when I watch it, for a little sexual variety. A nice body I haven't seen before. The opportunity to watch someone else go at it. Whatever. It doesn't dominate my life or my sexual activity. And I guarantee that for those people it does dominate, there was something cooking inside them already, before they even started up with the porn. It seems unfair to condemn porn for that. Porn is not out there waiting to subvert you. It's that some people are emotionally predisposed for subversion. And if we were to denigrate, or worse, outlaw everything that some some people could be subverted/perverted by, then we'd have to outlaw a hell of a lot of good, or at least benign, things in our culture, not just porn.

 

And as for more benign porn seducing viewers into more bizarre porn: I reject this contention on the same grounds that I reject the claim that there are "gateway" drugs that inevitably seduce the user beyond them and into worse drugs. The logic is obvious, and flawed. Of course users of hard drugs started with more benign drugs: the more benign drugs were easier to procure and less immediately dangerous! But it doesn't follow that all users of those more benign drugs are destined toward harder drugs. There are millions of disconfirming examples out there. I'm one of them. The same thing applies to porn.

 

Next allegation: Porn portrays sex in unhealthy ways and is actually more about human beings exploting their power and victimizing others with it. This argument is often further focused by suggesting porn is particularly degrading of women. First, I'm gonna call bullshit. That's just not true. Male gay porn exploits women??? But let's leave that trivial objection behind: There is in fact a sizeable niche in the porn market produced by women and designed to feature hot straight models depicting intimate, mutually pleasurable sex. I've watched some of this: It's hot! I've watched it with my wife even. We both enjoy it. But there is plenty of porn not made and marketed like that which still features sex between men and women that is not explotive. Beyond that, an incredibly popular genre of of porn these days is the amateur video. There are mountains of amateur sex videos out there which depict basically healthy lovemaking, or more often, basically healthy lust, in which not even a HINT of abuse is going on. Now some people may think hair-pulling or spanking are demeaning...but again, they don't have to be. While spanking isn't a kink of mine, I don't mind a hard slap on the butt once in a while from either partner; it's actually kind of hot. And neither my wife or man consider it demeaning for me to do it to them. Context, and the particulars of the relationship under consideration, are everything. Beyond that, anyone who concludes from watching explotive, degrading porn that sex is about degradation and lording power over someone...well, that person already has screwed-up ideas about sex and power. For the rest of us, we recognize something that's screwed up when we see it. Furthermore, if we're talking about teenagers being exposed to this porn when their sexual attitudes are still under construction, I contend that it is the parents' responsibility to talk to their kids not just about the facts of life but also about what good, mutual lovemaking is all about, and about how our sex drives are not excuses for us to use, dehumanize, or manipulate people. The absence of degrading porn can't supply what parents don't, and the presence of degrading porn won't subvert a kid who has had positive values instilled and who has had a chance to practice these values in his everyday life. Of course there is degrading porn out there. There is porn for every flavor of sexual desire, from the healthy to the benign to the absolutely toxic. But healthy people don't seek out toxic porn. And toxic porn doesn't poison healthy people. And again, if we disallowed or denigrated every influence that poisons unhealthy people, we'd have many more and bigger things to crusade against than porn.

 

Finally, and on a similar note...I just don't see that the majority of porn is about abuse of power. I just don't see it. No porn I've ever enjoyed has featured that kind of exploitation. Yes, I know that kind of porn is out there. But to claim that porn is all like that is just factually incorrect. And anyway, don't many of us from time to time do a little dominating-and-submitting play in sex? If so, what's wrong with it? And in an ordinarily healthy person, if looking at an s&m porn or a dom/sub porn is appealing, and if said viewer isn't out there victimizing the world (and whether that's the case or not can't be determined, because nobody even knows if that person is enjoying fantasy-only versions of that!), then what's the harm? I'll beat the readers over the head with it one more time: Almost anything can be used to reinforce an unhealthy person's unhealthy attitudes and practices. We shouldn't deride all those things, though. They themselves are not the problem, as demonstrated by the fact that most people don't have trouble with them.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Adam Phillips

[Kitt]

I think the entire thing can be summed up in saying porn is a thing - neither inherently good or bad. Addictive personalities will find something to become addicted to - be that porn or alcohol or drugs. Porn doesn't "lead" anyone anywhere. It is a piece of film - nothing more, nothing less.

[Graeme]

To me, porn falls into the same category as almost everything else: it's fine in moderation and dangerous in excess.

 

I would consider porn to be mental stimulation to achieve a sexual response (usually a sexual release). As such, it fits into the same category as other mental stimulations. For most people, these mental stimulations are harmless, and can even be healthy. But if someone is not mentally fit, then the mental stimulation can harm them, just like some forms of physical exercise can harm someone who is not physically fit.

 

The analogy I would use is that of fantasy roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons (which I used to play). I remember some reports about how dangerous these games are because it drives people to doing extreme things. However, given my own experiences and those of my friends, I would say that the games triggered something in a mind that was already unbalanced, and that's the cause of those extreme events. It's not caused by the roleplaying games -- it's an inherent problem that was triggered by the roleplaying games.

 

I see porn in the same way. For most people, it's not unhealthy. But for some, it triggers problems in a mind that already has issues.

 

Having said that, there are categories of porn that, like Adam, I have a strong distaste for. One of those would be porn featuring women, but that's just me. I'm not saying that that sort of porn is wrong, but it's not a turn-on for me.

 

There are also some categories of porn that I think are potentially unhealthy. While it seems to be popular in some quarters, S&M is something that makes me question whether there is a mental health issue underpinning that sort of porn. I'm not a mental health expert, though, so I'll reserve judgement. I will, however, try to make sure my sons don't get exposed to that sort of porn for as long as possible.

 

In summary, I have generally disliked sweeping generalisations. (I originally wrote 'always' but that's a sweeping generalisation and I thought I'd be hypocritical if I said that ). Porn has it's good and bad points. It is neither universally good or neutral, nor universally bad. It is very much an individual thing. An analogy would be drinking or gambling. These are activities that can be good or neutral, but sometimes can be bad, but it all depends on the individual. The way they affect one person, or even a group of people, cannot be extrapolated to the wider community. We're all different.

[joann414]

I'd never viewed porn until I was in my early twenties and it was with my husband. His younger brother was coming to visit, he was seventeen, and asked my husband to get him a movie to watch. (porn).  My husband told me to get one at the video store that day.  I was like, "What?!!!!"  He looked at me strangely and said, yeah.  You can rent them at the video store.  I told him I'd never seen them.  He told me I'd have to ask, they keep the listings for them in a notebook under the counter probably. 

Thank goodness I knew the lady that ran the video store.  She laughed at me when I stuttered trying to tell her what I wanted.  I flipped through the big notebook that contained the covers of the porn movies.  I was like hmmm.  Decided I'd like to see some of them so I rented five.  Of course back then, you got to rent a movie for the weekend for five bucks, and anyday after that was three dollars per day.

Well, hubby was shocked when he came in and I had five of the movies and told him I wanted to watch them too.  His brother stayed in our back room, and I guess watched his that night.  Well,  I didn't realize what I was getting into.  We didn't even get through the first movie over the weekend.  I was fascinated, aroused, and just plain pleasantly, shocked.  I took them all back that Monday morning even though we hadn't even finished the first one to keep from paying late charges.  I started renting one a week.  This went on for about two years.  Then I graduated to m/m, and was hooked.  My hubby could either watch or cover his head with the pillow.  He eventually admitted that he enjoyed it also. 

While, I think we should take steps to try to limit what our kids are exposed to, don't fool yourself into thinking you are monitoring them all the time unless you have your finger on them.  Seriously.  No Way can you keep it from them.  I just always hoped my daughter was as late getting exposed  as I was because it was quite a nice surprise when I discovered porn.  Of course, mine is pretty tame porn.  I had to look up a couple of things you posted here to see what they meant.       No way would I be remotely interested in it.  I think my mouth was probably hanging open as I read it on my laptop.  Didn't even know there was such a thing.

So, I don't think you're a mence to society if you view porn or incorporate it into you and your partner's relationship if it is a mutual thing, but I'd draw a line on the type of porn I'd watch or that I'd even think of my daugher watching.  It certainly takes a different mindered person to do some of the stuff I read.

 

Each to his own I guess.

Edited March 3, 2014 by joann414

[Andy78]

I really don't want to frighten anyone so I'll stay quiet

[TetRefine]

Porn, to me, is a very interesting subject. If it wasn't for gay porn, I probably would have graduated high school still closeted and god only knows where I would have ended up. Certainly not where I am now, and I like where I'm at now. 

 

My first experience with porn was around 10/11. My grandpa had a subscription to Playboy and left a magazine in the bathroom. One day after school when I was over there, I found it and spent almost an hour locked in the bathroom looking through it. I ripped out a picture to secretly take home with me, but got caught when my grandpa wondered why a picture had been ripped out. My dad handled the situation, and he didn't scold me, but told me I was too young to be looking at that stuff and took it away. 

 

When I started coming into my sexuality more and realized I had different inclinations, I began exploring gay porn around 16 or so. In order to avoid getting caught, I used an old laptop hidden away in the basement to watch it. My brother started having drug issues and my dad thought he was using that old laptop to do things he wasn't supposed to. He installed one of those screenshot/key-logger programs, and found out unintentionally that I was using that laptop to look at gay porn. Both my parents were completely taken aback because they never suspected. My dad eventually asked me about it, and he was the first person I came out to. I was mortified at the time that it happened, but it worked out all well looking back on it now. 

 

Anyway, porn opened me up to a whole other world that I didn't get to see because of where I lived. In my hometown, there are nothing but white people for as far as the eye could see. I saw plenty of gorgeous white guys in school growing up, but nobody of color. When I started with gay porn I stumbled by accident onto this video of two uncut, young Colombian twinks doing each other. I was fascinated by their beautiful, dark skin, and the fact that they were uncut. I had never seen an uncut dick in real life or in porn before. It was so exotic and different to me that porn from Colombia, Brazil, etc. became the only thing I liked to look at for a while. I've branched out a little since, but its ironic because my boyfriend now is an uncut, Colombian twink. I wonder if there is a connection there... Most of the guys I have slept with have been non-white, so I'm convinced porn helped shape some of my sexual inclinations. 

 

Anyway, I don't think porn is toxic as long as you don't allow it to overtake you. I have a pretty healthy, active sex life but still like to look at porn pretty regularly. It simply lets me branch out from my reality and have a little fantasy for five minutes or so. I disagree that there is a fine line on what kind of porn is okay and what kind is not. Some people would find dominant/submissive porn to be degrading and desensitizing, but I find it totally hot. So who's right? I personally find fisting to be absolutely disgusting, but plenty of others find it totally hot. I fail to see how having a fist shoved up your ass can be pleasurable, but some people do like it. If thats what they like, then good for them. It's like sex. If its consensual its all good and fine by me. I personally don't find sensual, lovey-dovey porn to be stimulating at all, but some people love it. It's all in personal taste, and I don't feel like we, as sexual minorities, are in any position to judge in that department. Hell, a lot of people already think what we do in the most vanilla form is evil and wrong, so IMO its hypocritical to judge.

[Daddydavek]

Porn has been around forever and is documented at least as far back as written history including pictograms.   

 

I agree with most of what has been said.   I don't think it's appropriate for very young children although I admit I was interested in my older brother's stash from the time I was eight and it probably did stimulate more than I needed at that age.  I also think that the whole sadism, masochism, bondage, and cutting is more than a little too much for me.  From my point of view, sex is supposed to feel good.   I don't equate being hurt with feeling good and I think that is where it is problematic.  

 

I particularly agree with the comments about desensitization and addictive personality types.  

 

As a person who has been looking at it for more than fifty-five years, I can say that usually, a little goes a long way.   A lot becomes boring.

[Sasha Distan]

I think Kitt is about right. it's like the guy who, incredibly awfully, shot up the cinema and blamed it on the new Batman film. there were things not quite set right in his head anyway. People who go and do bad things "because of porn" were always going to have a point which tipped them over the edge.

 

on a weird aside, my husband might be the only man alive who doesn't use porn, and I mean ever. and not ever before we were together. i find this peculiar. I like it sometimes. Sometimes i find things i don't like so much, but i also found a short video which i save just for the audio. so i'm weird.

[Kitt]

Not weird - different. And different is ok. The world would be boring without different.

[wildone]

What's this porn that you all are speaking about ?

 

[Daddydavek]

What's this porn that you all are speaking about ?

 

What is it that Canadians are famous for saying?   Ehhh?

[hh5]

in a movie about a college boy named Bill Gates, he pays strippers to put their cloths back on

---

back to the topic, its film but its the studios\websites that makes millions from subscribers while the actor contractor is paid a fraction

some actor contractors that learned the business also form their own companies n websites since there is no formal porn licence 

 

the audition is questionable in terms of it being healthy of disease as no one knows if the interviewer photographer undergoes health tests after every interview

its unknown if before an audition if the actor provides a health test results on the day of the audition w valid proof of age

 

it is evident the reason for audition is to make some quick easy money but I bet there must be cases where there is a cost n risk

ie: a twink wants to do porn and his bf doesn't want him to, cost = breakup or disagreement

 

there can be underage actor contractor because of fake ids; I have no idea if porn records are audited

aside from porn companies there are most likely underage and of age people posting amatuer porn captures of their own; 

creating unregulated porn and websites making money on a free resource\asset

 

there are people who adorn their homes with porn ie: BSDM dungeons n reenactments of their favorite porn films

lol, never met anyone that does it but I bet there are people who do this (one of reasons to avoid the porn chat rooms n porn relations ads)

 

I wonder for people who acted in porn lose their credibility in the non-porn world

ie: a potential employer google image compares an applicant to see if a porn picture match occurs

Edited March 4, 2014 by hh5

[W_L]

Porn is merely a tool for pleasure, not the pleasure itself. It focuses our imagination and our active minds, but most of us won't be dating gay porn stars

 

To deny  or decry porn as evil is like denying fantasy fiction; heck, I'd go as far as to say that sexual images and media can be as imaginative and stimulating as Tolkien or Rowling to your imagination (without slashing or mixing the too, then it gets messy ). You want to imagine yourself in those situation in porn, like picking up a hot guy and having sex on the beach, going to his dungeon for some "special fun", or whatever floats your boat.

 

I know, it's strange, but I think porn, if done well and not cheesy can be a genuine art form as it is provocative and stimulates your imagination and thought. Some good porn can be remembered and enjoyed endlessly. 

[TetRefine]

I know, it's strange, but I think porn, if done well and not cheesy can be a genuine art form as it is provocative and stimulates your imagination and thought. Some good porn can be remembered and enjoyed endlessly. 

 

Ever see any of the Blackspark videos? They started appearing like 4 years ago. Those come to mind as genuine artistic porn. 

Edited March 4, 2014 by TetRefine

[JamesSavik]

Cave paintings are either about hunting or sex.

 

I'm pretty sure that says it all.

[Mark Arbour]

I'm going to vote:  Good. 

[Adam Phillips]

Cave paintings are either about hunting or sex.

 

I'm pretty sure that says it all.

 

Cave porn; I like it.

[Cia]

I first saw a porn magazine at the age of 7. My sister and I sold pages to a friend's other brother. Yeah, I was real traumatized. The first time I read anything to do with sex was I think... the age of 9 I stumbled into some Harlequin romances. First gay sex story exposure, 10, though that was a rape scene. First porn movie... 11, and that was at a party with a ton of much older people. Yet I'm not perverted (at least in a bad way, lol) or mentally traumatized.

 

I think porn can be arousing, or off-putting, or absolutely ridiculous. I've seen all kinds. I believe sexuality is a thing to be explored. Porn in itself isn't bad, nor is every person who makes porn being victimized or marginalized as a person instead of an object of lust. Could people do a better job of hiding it from their kids? Yes. I know my parents could have. I know I'm doing my job keeping my kids innocent during the time they should be able to JUST be kids when they hear the word sex on TV commercials and get a confused look on their face and then shrug or ask, what's that? (which just happened tonight)

 

Overall, my view on porn can be summed up by this common acronym you can come across in the BDSM world. YKIOK or Your Kink Is Okay. You can also see it as YKNMKBTOK or Your Kink's Not My Kink But That's OKay. There will always be things not okay, of course, but those usually go beyond kink and into illegal activity.

[Graeme]

I've just come across this newspaper article the UK's Daily Telegraph:

 

Judge blames easy access to online pornography after boy, 12, rapes seven-year-old sister

 

The part that made me post the link is this part:

 

 

The NSPCC warned of the “dark influence” of online pornography, which teaches a “grim and misleading lesson – that girls are for the sexual gratification for boys”.

 

The charity agreed that the the “proliferation” of hard core material online is driving an increase in such cases, which are now running at the rate of 2,500 per year.

 

I recognise that the NSPCC probably has a reason to spin this case a particular way, but is the figure of 2,500 per year accurate? Does anyone in the UK know if this is correct?

 

I also need to point out that the experiences of the pre-Internet generation isn't relevant here because we didn't have easy access to hard-core pornography. We only had easy access to soft-core porn like Penthouse or Playboy (or Cleo for the girls and,...er...gay boys )

Edited March 4, 2014 by Graeme
Fixed quotation formatting

[MikeL]

Cave paintings are either about hunting or sex.

 

I'm pretty sure that says it all.

 

The cavemen lead a rather Spartan existence.  Their art imitated their lives.  Hunting and sex were all they had.

 

Today we have computers.

[hh5]

Some ppl have porn tattoos; that makes very mobil

The cavemen lead a rather Spartan existence.  Their art imitated their lives.  Hunting and sex were all they had.

 

Today we have computers.

[C J]

People like sex, so they indulge in whatever way is available at the moment.  If they don't have something to watch on a screen, or somebody to share with personally, then they play it out in their imagination.  Pretty basic stuff, and just a human thing.  I would say anyone who doesn't have this basic interest is probably defective in some way.  I hope that defect doesn't spread, I like people who like sex. 

[Celethiel]

I think the word for Porn is something meaningless.. it is something that makes some people money, gives lots of people pleasure, but utlimately has no meaning in our world.

[Kitt]

Ummm - people? A large portion of the population would call most of the stories on this sight written porn. 

[Slytherin]

Ummm - people? A large portion of the population would call most of the stories on this sight written porn. 

you are right