' Live-Poets Society ' – A Corner For Poetry

[Parker Owens]

I'm no poet, but a doggerel catcher from time to time. I occasionally post a verse on the "Last Post Wins" game in the Games Forum. This is a great thread, and I'll be back...

[Mikiesboy]

I did think the slightly 'naked' style was sort of part of what was a haiku or a tanka. Knowing no Japanese what so ever, I have no feel for the language. That makes it difficult to understand something so personal and culturally entwined as poetry. I sent you that Swedish poem once, AC, and remember I winced at the translation. So I guess many Japanese (being or speaking) feel the same about this poetry.

 

Add to that my own habit of doing poetry kind of choppy and it's a double effect. Food for thought indeed!

 

Yes, exactly the same number.

So then could it just be English itself ... or do you think it's the poet that makes it choppy?  I mean, there are certainly better poets than I am and people who are much more imaginative, which likely would effect your writing.  I'm sure it affects mine.  And well, I've only started in the past few months to learn the different forms ... I'm just thinking out loud.. which may not be a good thing.  Okay. Did I tell everyone I have a tendency to talk a lot... ? No.. well.. be warned!

I'm no poet, but a doggerel catcher from time to time. I occasionally post a verse on the "Last Post Wins" game in the Games Forum. This is a great thread, and I'll be back...

Hey Welcome Aboard!!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Mikiesboy

[Drew Espinosa]

So then could it just be English itself ... or do you think it's the poet that makes it choppy?  I mean, there are certainly better poets than I am and people who are much more imaginative, which likely would effect your writing.  I sure it affects mine.  And well, I've only started in the past few months to learn the different forms ... I'm just thinking out loud.. which may not be a good thing.  Okay. Did I tell everyone I have a tendency to talk a lot... ? No.. well.. be warned!

Not necessarily. I think it's the process of translation itself. Languages never perfectly match, especially when it comes to grammar, syntax, etc.

 

For example, take the Spanish phrase: Tengo hambre. A literal translation into English would be: I have hunger. However, it's actually translated as: I am hungry, and if we were to literally translate that back into Spanish, we'd get: Estoy hambre (which breaks some grammatical rules in Spanish).

 

Bottom line: translation is tricky.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Drew Espinosa

[dughlas]

So AC what you're telling us is that it's, I don't want to say "wrong", perhaps ill informed to express thoughts in their barest form. The thing I most like about the Japanese styles as I learned them, is that they seemed to allow a more fluid response on the part of the reader. It becomes necessary to fill in the soft gaps by your own experience. The poem becomes deeply personal and yet remains shared. I don't always "get" the message in other styles. I get lost in rhyme or not to rhyme, the what the hell is pentameter. For me the Japanese forms are easy ... 5-7-5 or 5-7-5-7-7 ... what do you see, what do you feel, use what fits? Do I make any sort of sense at all? Poetry and the subsequent discussions always makes me feel the inadequacy of my understanding, hence my "fear". So for me to write and share poetry is a big deal, for me to engage in this discussion is unprecedented.

[Aditus]

Not necessarily. I think it's the process of translation itself. Languages never perfectly match, especially when it comes to grammar, syntax, etc.

 

For example, take the Spanish phrase: Tengo hambre. A literal translation into English would be: I have hunger. However, it's actually translated as: I am hungry, and if we were to literally translate that back into Spanish, we'd get: Estoy hambre (which breaks some grammatical rules in Spanish).

 

Bottom line: translation is tricky.

But in German it would be perfectly right. Ich habe Hunger.  I have hunger. Which by the way made some of my English friends rofl when I started to speak English.

[dughlas]

I'm no poet, but a doggerel catcher from time to time. I occasionally post a verse on the "Last Post Wins" game in the Games Forum. This is a great thread, and I'll be back...

Oh please come back and share what you will. I'm trying to learn.

Edited January 5, 2016 by dughlas

[AC Benus]

Thanks all for your comments. I suppose my point about Haiku and Tanka is they are a bit 'naked' (as Pup put it brilliantly), but not sparse to the point of being ungrammatical in Japanese. The challenge in lines of five and seven syllables is just as difficult in the Japanese language - if not more so than in English - but the poet does not feel allowed to cheat and string thoughts together not bound by the rules of sentence-making. I just hope we can all be aware of that as we write our own Japanese-style verse.

Edited January 5, 2016 by AC Benus

[Drew Espinosa]

But in German it would be perfectly right. Ich habe Hunger.  I have hunger. Which by the way made some of my English friends rofl when I started to speak English.

I actually think, "I have hunger" is perfectly fine in English, speaking/writing it and in terms of rules. I just think for many whose first language is English, seeing and hearing "I have hunger" is new and therefore they're not used to it.

[Mikiesboy]

Oh please come back and share whatvyou will. I'm trying to learn.

Parker has written some super poetry:

 

https://www.gayauthors.org/story/parker-owens/occasionalpoetry/1

[Aditus]

Thanks all for your comments. I suppose my point about Haiku and Tanka is they are a bit 'naked' (as Pup put it brilliantly), but not sparse to the point of being ungrammatical in Japanese. The challenge in lines of five and seven syllables is just as difficult in the Japanese language - if not more so than in English - but the poet does not feel allowed to cheat and string thoughts together not bound by the rules of sentence-making. I just hope we can all be aware of that as we write our own Japanese-style verse.

Now I have to go back and look at mine.

[J.HunterDunn]

By the way, for anyone who missed it, Doctor Oger recently posted an interesting and engaging poem called From the speakers the sensual sound. Please be sure to check it out, and leave feedback. Also, read some of the other poems in this 'Sock Drawer,' because they're all quite enjoyable      

 

When you have visited the "Sock Drawer", also go by the "Wardrobe". Although prose, very much worth reading.

[Puppilull]

Now I have to go back and look at mine.

 

I did and I see what the difference is. I think my geese are actually pretty good (in this respect), but the others are more forced together.

 

 

 (as Pup put it brilliantly), .

 

Oh, you...! *blushes* LOL

[AC Benus]

So AC what you're telling us is that it's, I don't want to say "wrong", perhaps ill informed to express thoughts in their barest form. The thing I most like about the Japanese styles as I learned them, is that they seemed to allow a more fluid response on the part of the reader. It becomes necessary to fill in the soft gaps by your own experience. The poem becomes deeply personal and yet remains shared. I don't always "get" the message in other styles. I get lost in rhyme or not to rhyme, the what the hell is pentameter. For me the Japanese forms are easy ... 5-7-5 or 5-7-5-7-7 ... what do you see, what do you feel, use what fits? Do I make any sort of sense at all? Poetry and the subsequent discussions always makes me feel the inadequacy of my understanding, hence my "fear". So for me to write and share poetry is a big deal, for me to engage in this discussion is unprecedented.

Barest form is true. That matches Puppilull's 'naked,' and I agree. You can say a lot in a few syllables, and it's the limitation of form that gives us freedom (thank you Goethe for putting it so well...) 

 

What seems to be different is the 'smooth poetry' present in the Japanese originals and lacking in some English language poems of this type. Natural sentence-making is present in the source tradition, but somehow sacrificed more often than not in other languages using the forms. 

 

I'm glad you're sharing, Dugh. It's giving me a chance to try and express myself as well. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by AC Benus

[Parker Owens]

I teach algebra

and trigonometry, so

haiku is a break.

 

Each lesson assails

my brain until I'm too buzzed

with numbers to count

 

insignificant

digits past the seventh place

of calculation.

 

There. A series of haiku, trying not to be too 'choppy,' and using reasonably standard English grammar.

[AC Benus]

(OHHHHH, it sucks to be out of likes!!!!)

 

Great poems, Parker

[Drew Espinosa]

I teach algebra

and trigonometry, so

haiku is a break.

 

Each lesson assails

my brain until I'm too buzzed

with numbers to count

 

insignificant

digits past the seventh place

of calculation.

 

There. A series of haiku, trying not to be too 'choppy,' and using reasonably standard English grammar.

Mathematicians unite!

[Mikiesboy]

Mathematicians unite!

Oh.. I'm just going ... lol

[Drew Espinosa]

Oh.. I'm just going ... lol

Once I become comfortable with the sonnet (which is several prompts away) I'll be writing one on my love for math

Edited January 5, 2016 by Drew Espinosa

[dughlas]

Okay, I thought I knew how this was done, now I'm not so sure, I think it best I return to the sidelines.

[Parker Owens]

Oh, don't. If nothing else, doggerel was good enough for Gilbert and Sullivan.

[AC Benus]

Okay, I thought I knew how this was done, now I'm not so sure, I think it best I return to the sidelines.

...then i've failed and let myself down...

 

I want you to stay

Edited January 6, 2016 by AC Benus

[Puppilull]

Okay, I thought I knew how this was done, now I'm not so sure, I think it best I return to the sidelines.

 

Oh please don't! Stay and wrestle words with us!

[Mikiesboy]

Oh please don't! Stay and wrestle words with us!

 

Okay, I thought I knew how this was done, now I'm not so sure, I think it best I return to the sidelines.

Pup is right.. that's why this forum is here, cuz we all like or love poetry.  We are here to support each other .. and I know I can learn from all of you.. and feel safe doing it. 

[J.HunterDunn]

Pup is right.. that's why this forum is here, cuz we all like or love poetry.  We are here to support each other .. and I know I can learn from all of you.. and feel safe doing it. 

 

I support Puppi and tim ... please stay, Dugh !

[AC Benus]

Question: Should I play it safe and stick with iambic pentameter or be more adventurous and try something else?

Drew, to get a feel for metre at it's most lyrical, and still meaningful best, look at the Poems of Childhood here by Eugene Field. He was a truly excellent poet, and a great influence on another master of metre, Robert Frost.