I had an idea...

[Comicality]

 

And this is for a future issue of Imagine Magazine (Latest issue at https://imagine-magazine.org/releases/volume-37/) so there's no big rush or anything, but you guys have been so amazing in your responses about the writing process so far, I thought I might come here and ask for some 'quotes' or personal experiences with this.

 

I've seen a bunch of comments on female writers, putting out gay male fiction. Many of them negative. In fact, when I started self publishing on Amazon, I went to the message board, and there were requests for gay erotica written, specifically, by men and not women. This has always baffled me, as a LOT of female writers here on GA have written some of the best stories available on the entire site! Like...WTF is that about?

 

I would love to write an article about this for the magazine in one of the future issues. But I'd love to hear from our female authors on this. What has been your experience with this? Positive? Negative? Have you ever felt the need to 'hide' in order to get your stories read? Have you ever felt any backlash about this? I can't imagine why...but it does happen. And I want to address it. This is a bias that shouldn't exist at all. Let's get rid of it. You know?

 

Anyway, I've been SUPER busy with stuff lately, but I'll be back after next week. You know...Valentine's Day and all.

 

Ps- Male authors are also more than welcome to give their opinions on this as well! Feel free to be honest. I really want to know the real deal here. K?

 

So if you're a female write of gay male fiction, feel free to respond here, or write to me privately at Comicality@webtv.net so I can add your insight to the article.

 

[CassieQ]

Wow, so this is news to me?  I had no idea that there was any kind of bias against female writers.  I've never had anyone tell me that they think I don't write as well as a man does.  

 

If there are people out there who think females shouldn't write gay fiction, then screw them.  I'll write whatever the hell I want.

Edited February 10, 2018 by CassieQ

[Page Scrawler]

@CassieQ Amen to that, sister!

Honestly, in my experience, I've seen some (non-GA) female writers pull off gay fiction more successfully than a few male writers. I mean, this is just my opinion, but Shaun David Hutchison and John Green can't write for $h*t! Whereas Rose Christo and Nina LaCour hold more appeal for me. I don't know what it is. I guess women are better at relating to other people, including gay men? *shrugs* Or, maybe straight men are completely clueless about how gay men think.

[Comicality]

Agreed!!! I always thought that was a baffling bias to have. But I'm constantly trying to understand the things that I don't understand, so I'm curious about it. If I can find some links to such posts, I'll come back and link them here to see what you think. But yeah, ladies have proven time and time again that they're fully capable of writing amazing gay male stories. But...you know...'people'. Grrr! 

[Brayon]

I've said it before, my only criticism of any Gay Fiction writer, male or female, is how some sex scenes are so badly written, you know they were written by people who have never had gay sex. There are some things, and some positions, that are just not biologically possible. For Example: two characters are barebacking, and the top shoots his load inside the bottom. The bottom is not going to, "felt his seed splash across my intestinal walls." Nope. Not Possible. Go back to Biology 101.

[FormerMember4]

I have read good and bad by women. Just as I have men. I have seen some women clearly not grasp M/M relationships. That’s not to say they can’t, or shouldn’t. It’s more understand and research before writing.

[Page Scrawler]

I've seen a few posts on Nifty, that refer to a "boy-nut" when two characters have sex, and the first few times, it left me confused. "'Boy nut'? Shouldn't that be plural? Wait, I thought they were using the backdoor?" Then I realized the writers were talking about the prostate.

This really belongs in its own topic, but here's a tip: If you're writing a sex scene, don't get too wild with slang terms for body parts. Of course, you don't have to use all of the "correct" terms, or you'll come off sounding like a medical encyclopedia, but a balance between the two is acceptable.

Another grave error that some writers make: they forget to give their characters a life beyond the trail of rose petals leading to the bedroom....not that there's anything wrong with that, necessarily. BUT! We should all remember, our MC's were somebody before they met their significant other; that doesn't change just because they met someone with wavy hair, Bambi eyes, and a heart of gold! Give your guy other goals, like maybe he wants to win a competition so he can buy a bike for his kid brother, or maybe he has to learn how to control his wormhole-jumping powers without landing on the radar of Homeland Security. Maybe that's why I enjoy C James' Circumnavigation so much; Trevor's sexuality is only one tiny part of the story, but it's not the primary focus of the plot.

You should always research things you don't know, before you write about that subject. Because, if someone comes along who knows better (and trust me, they will), they won't forgive you, and stop reading anything you come up with.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Page Scrawler

[FormerMember4]

6 minutes ago, Page Scrawler said:

I've seen a few posts on Nifty, that refer to a "boy-nut" when two characters have sex, and the first few times, it left me confused. "'Boy nut'? Shouldn't that be plural? Wait, I thought they were using the backdoor?" Then I realized the writers were talking about the prostate.

This really belongs in its own topic, but here's a tip: If you're writing a sex scene, don't get too wild with slang terms for body parts. Of course, you don't have to use all of the "correct" terms, or you'll come off sounding like a medical encyclopedia, but a balance between the two is acceptable.

Another grave error that some writers make: they forget to give their characters a life beyond the trail of rose petals leading to the bedroom....not that there's anything wrong with that, necessarily. :p. BUT! We should all remember, our MC's were somebody before they met their significant other; that doesn't change just because they met someone with wavy hair, Bambi eyes, and a heart of gold! Give your guy other goals, like maybe he wants to win a competition so he can buy a bike for his kid brother, or maybe he has to learn how to control his wormhole-jumping powers without landing on the radar of Homeland Security. Maybe that's why I enjoy C James' Circumnavigation so much; Trevor's sexuality is only one tiny part of the story, but it's not the primary focus of the plot.

You should always research things you don't know, before you write about that subject. Because, if someone comes along who knows better (and trust me, they will), they won't forgive you, and stop reading anything you come up with.

Stop hitting the magic spot, love nut, love button, joy knob... a few descriptions I’ve seen.

[Cia]

The crux of the issue is our perception of gender. A man in love with a woman who curls around them and watches a sappy movie and gets tears in his eyes is a sensitive man (and oh so sexy). A man in love with a man who curls around them and watches a sappy movie and gets tears in his eyes is too feminine, especially if written by a female author. I've said it time and again, but we won't get over this issue until we get over the base assumptions about what constitutes masculine and feminine behavior. Then we can stop attacking authors for writing their characters in those ways. 

 

Men can write women. Women can write men. Businessmen can write serial killers, doctors can write blue collar construction workers, and vice versa. If someone creates a one-dimensional character, or constantly adds in actions that don't fit the character, that reflects far more on their research skills and respect for the craft than their gender. 

[Comicality]

48 minutes ago, Cia said:

The crux of the issue is our perception of gender. A man in love with a woman who curls around them and watches a sappy movie and gets tears in his eyes is a sensitive man (and oh so sexy). A man in love with a man who curls around them and watches a sappy movie and gets tears in his eyes is too feminine, especially if written by a female author. I've said it time and again, but we won't get over this issue until we get over the base assumptions about what constitutes masculine and feminine behavior. Then we can stop attacking authors for writing their characters in those ways. 

 

Men can write women. Women can write men. Businessmen can write serial killers, doctors can write blue collar construction workers, and vice versa. If someone creates a one-dimensional character, or constantly adds in actions that don't fit the character, that reflects far more on their research skills and respect for the craft than their gender. 

 

 

All great answers! I definitely want to quote this one, Cia! Wow...

 

Thanks, you guys. This is exactly what I was looking for!

[Cia]

Be my guest, @Comicality 

[Renee Stevens]

I've seen this time and time again and it frustrates me to no end.  I'm a woman and I've never hidden it. It's sad that some women who write gay male fiction feel the need to write under male pen names (or ambiguous pen names) for this exact reason.  The one that annoys me the most is when I see someone saying about a female writer who writes gay male fiction, "You can't write what you've never experienced." If that were truly the case, then there could be no fiction period. All stories would have be some type of non-fiction. We wouldn't have sci-fi, fantasy, horror, or any other number of genres. The characters from a single author would have to have the same personality, the same types of jobs, etc (ie. cookie cutter characters). As a woman who writes gay fiction, one of the most important things besides research, is my team. I'm lucky in that I've always had gay friends who are willing to read what I write, and they've never hesitated to tell me "Sweetie, we love you, but this scene just isn't possible/doesn't work" or similar comments. They're not afraid to tell me when I've screwed something up but they also tell me when I've got something right.

[FormerMember4]

10 minutes ago, Renee Stevens said:

I've seen this time and time again and it frustrates me to no end.  I'm a woman and I've never hidden it. It's sad that some women who write gay male fiction feel the need to write under male pen names (or ambiguous pen names) for this exact reason.  The one that annoys me the most is when I see someone saying about a female writer who writes gay male fiction, "You can't write what you've never experienced." If that were truly the case, then there could be no fiction period. All stories would have be some type of non-fiction. We wouldn't have sci-fi, fantasy, horror, or any other number of genres. The characters from a single author would have to have the same personality, the same types of jobs, etc. As a woman who writes gay fiction, one of the most important things besides research, is my team. I'm lucky in that I've always had gay friends who are willing to read what I write, and they've never hesitated to tell me "Sweetie, we love you, but this scene just isn't possible/doesn't work" or similar comments. They're not afraid to tell me when I've screwed something up but they also tell me when I've got something right.

This is where GA can be a resource to an author. I know how renee plans her work. All authors need research and feedback. Often if a story fails, it relates to other issues. Not the gender of an author.

Some of the best stories on GA are by the three ladies commenting on this question.

[Caz Pedroso]

I have been very lucky so far to not have been subjected to any of the nastiness of people thinking I shouldn't be writing about gay men. I have, however, seen it happen to others. Authors have been forced to shut down their Facebook profiles and reopen under different names to try and get away from the people targetting them. 

The only backlash I've seen has been in real life, losing friends (who obviously weren't friends and so don't matter) and having to change Churches due to bigots. 

 

If we follow the hypothetical premise that men can only write men and women can only write women it would make for very boring stories. By that premise, I should be writing lesbian romance, since I can't write about men and therefore by extension shouldn't write straight romance let alone gay romance. Well, that would mean I'd still be writing about something I know nothing about. So where would it end? Of course, my answer is that people should write what they're comfortable writing and what their muse compels them to write. And other people should but out and just not read the stories if they don't like/agree with them. 

[Valkyrie]

I've seen negative comments written about women who write m/m fiction, but have never had any directed specifically at me.  Like Renee, I don't understand women writers who feel the need to assume a male persona when publishing their stories.  And honestly... they're not fooling as many people as they think they are.    Writing is a craft that has nothing to do with gender or sexual identity.  Establishing a good beta/editing team is essential, and I'm lucky enough to have formed a close relationship with my beta reader, who happens to be a gay man.  He doesn't hesitate to tell me "guys don't act this way" or if a scene is implausible.  I've never felt the need to hide who I am.  I'm a pretty open and honest person, so it's not in my nature to try to be something I'm not. 

[Timothy M.]

You should ask @Carlos Hazday to comment on this topic. I know he feels strongly about gay couples being written as if one of them is female, and he has some valid points. I guess it isn't just done by female writers, but perhaps it's noticed more or blamed on their gender if a gay character is written as if he's a woman in the relationship or his general behavior.

 

I'd like to point out this bias against female writers isn't just in M/M fiction. J.K. Rowling was advised to use only her initials when publishing the first Harry Potter book, so as not to lose potential readers.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Timothy M.

[CassieQ]

1 hour ago, Timothy M. said:

You should ask @Carlos Hazday to comment on this topic. I know he feels strongly about gay couples being written as if one of them is female, and he has some valid points. I guess it isn't just done by female writers, but perhaps it's noticed more or blamed on their gender if a gay character is written as if he's a woman in the relationship or his general behavior.

 

I'd like to point out this bias against female writers isn't just in M/M fiction. J.K. Rowling was advised to use only her initials when publishing the first Harry Potter book, so as not to lose potential readers.

I don't write stories where one character is female.  That is dumb.  If I wanted to write a story with one male character and one female character, I would be writing straight fiction, not gay fiction.

 

I do remember reading somewhere about J.K. Rowling using her initials to help draw more readers.  Didn't she also use a male pseudonym when releasing a crime novel?

[Brayon]

3 minutes ago, CassieQ said:

 Didn't she also use a male pseudonym when releasing a crime novel?

Yes. From Wiki:

Quote

Since then, Rowling has written four books for adult readers: The Casual Vacancy (2012) and—under the pseudonym Robert Galbraith—the crime fiction novels The Cuckoo's Calling (2013), The Silkworm (2014) and Career of Evil (2015).^[7]

 

[FormerMember4]

Yes, the book was The Cuckoos  Calling  by Robert Gilbraith Cassie.

Edited February 11, 2018 by BlindAmbition

[northie]

I have an ambiguous name, but that was chosen long before I started writing. Go to my profile and I don't hide. I've not had any adverse comments about being female. Because of another topic here on GA, I did ask my beta reader specifically to comment on whether my male characters came across as truly male. His answer was 'yes'. 

 

In many ways I find women difficult to write about, mostly, I think, because I relate better to men than women. Many situations that characters find themselves in are universal, which only leaves some which might be thought of as 'specific'. We're all writers here,  with imagination, capacity to empathise and an ability to research. It shouldn't matter who we are.

[Comicality]

 

Excellent! I think I'm learning more than I expected with this. Which is always a good thing.

 

I'll take all of this in and try to include as much as I can. The articles in Imagine aren't that big, so I might have to do a little paraphrasing here and there, but I'll be sure to let you read it before I include your quote to make sure I didn't lose any context along the way. Thanks so much for the insight! Good info!  

[Krista]

I personally have never experienced negativity. I came to GA when there were a lot of authors and Viv and other female authors were already well established here. On nifty, I don't think people cared one way or the other, but I never hid the fact that I was female. The most asked question that I receive is, "How do I know the male mind so well?" or.. "How do I portray male characters so well?" Stuff like that. Then questions about sex, how do I write m/m sex scenes as a woman.

 

To be honest, I feel that I am just writing about people falling in love. The fact that they just happen to both be male is just the major underlying theme in the genre that I write. We're not really alien beings, there aren't worlds that separate the male and female genders. So me being able to portray a male character as a female isn't a massive challenge that I'm undertaking. I don't go into writing thinking that this character is male so he should act a certain way or that this character is female so she should act a certain way. I like to think that I go into writing thinking the characters are individuals governed by the way I want them to be portrayed. If they are stereotypicaly male, fine. As long as the characters male or female are of my creation and portrayed the way I want, I feel like I'm doing a good job. I'm definitely not doing anything special, just writing the way I want to write. 

 

As far as sex goes, again, it isn't all that different. What makes them real is how well you have written the characters engaged in intimacy to begin with. The mindset of sex between a man and a woman, between two women, or between two men cannot be universally different either. The reactions, fears, feelings, etc are similar so even my life experience as a heterosexual woman is somewhat beneficial in writing m/m scenes, especially those dealing with, "first timers." For those things I cannot know, like physical sensations, etc there is always research.  

[comicfan]

I've never had an issue with a woman writer. Hell, I have had beta and editors that were female, and trust me, they have no problem calling out an issue with a character in my stories - regardless if the character is straight, gay, bi, alien, or whatever.

 

When I do have an issue is when a story just doesn't make sense. That has nothing to do with the writer's gender and everything to do with their ability to tell a story.

 

Hell, we have some very talented authors here. If people start saying women can't, or men can't, or transgendered people can't then we eliminate so many stories, views, and new understandings. When people use blanket comments or broad strokes they do away with the fine details that make up so much of the world.

[Comicality]

This is CRAZY!!!

 

I may have to delay the next post and really go in depth to this idea. I don't want to cut any of these insights out!

 

I'll push for April, but...you guy have given me a lot to think about. Can I ask follow-up questions to these posts? I'm thirsty for more...

[Valkyrie]

On 2/16/2018 at 3:54 AM, Comicality said:

Can I ask follow-up questions to these posts? I'm thirsty for more...

 Absolutely.  This is a good discussion.