The art of writing (interestingly).

[Talo Segura]

 

So many times I read a great story that has good characters I grow to love, plot twists and turns, plus little surprises. Then on the downside it grows interminably long as the author repeats the minutiae of everyday life as if recounting the story from the protagonist’s point of view, living every minute of every day.

As a reader I don’t need to know he (the hero) got up and used the bathroom, made breakfast, etc., etc. For God’s sake get to the story plot and development! I’m being crushed with boredom waiting for something important to happen. I know real life is long periods of routine interspersed by occasional exciting events, but I don’t want to read that, I want to read the exciting events. A novel should be a plot and scenes that lead through that plot to the climax and resolution. Not a day by day account of everyday living, that is like watching paint dry, endless waiting, reading through nothing.

As a writer you surely have to ask yourself a few simple questions about each chapter you write. I usually prefer short chapters, around 2k, 3k words, but could go to 5k, 6k. I’ve read chapters of 8k, 10k, I find them long, which is normal, they are. But the question you have to ask is what is the event, or events, in this chapter that drive the plot? What happens, how important is it? If nothing much happens and what does isn’t very important, then do you need it in the story? I often have the impression that 100k words are written, when 30k or 40k would have been much better. All that waffle about nothing destroys a good book.

I would much rather read a 20k book full of all those discoveries and plot twists than the same expanded to 100k that has nothing extra to it, other than telling us how our protagonist got up, took a shower and had breakfast, everyday.

What do you think?

 

[Valkyrie]

8 minutes ago, Talo Segura said:

 

So many times I read a great story that has good characters I grow to love, plot twists and turns, plus little surprises. Then on the downside it grows interminably long as the author repeats the minutiae of everyday life as if recounting the story from the protagonist’s point of view, living every minute of every day.

As a reader I don’t need to know he (the hero) got up and used the bathroom, made breakfast, etc., etc. For God’s sake get to the story plot and development! I’m being crushed with boredom waiting for something important to happen. I know real life is long periods of routine interspersed by occasional exciting events, but I don’t want to read that, I want to read the exciting events. A novel should be a plot and scenes that lead through that plot to the climax and resolution. Not a day by day account of everyday living, that is like watching paint dry, endless waiting, reading through nothing.

As a writer you surely have to ask yourself a few simple questions about each chapter you write. I usually prefer short chapters, around 2k, 3k words, but could go to 5k, 6k. I’ve read chapters of 8k, 10k, I find them long, which is normal, they are. But the question you have to ask is what is the event, or events, in this chapter that drive the plot? What happens, how important is it? If nothing much happens and what does isn’t very important, then do you need it in the story? I often have the impression that 100k words are written, when 30k or 40k would have been much better. All that waffle about nothing destroys a good book.

I would much rather read a 20k book full of all those discoveries and plot twists than the same expanded to 100k that has nothing extra to it, other than telling us how our protagonist got up, took a shower and had breakfast, everyday.

What do you think?

 

I don't have anything to add to what you've already stated.  I think you pretty much nailed it.  

[Headstall]

6 hours ago, Talo Segura said:

 

So many times I read a great story that has good characters I grow to love, plot twists and turns, plus little surprises. Then on the downside it grows interminably long as the author repeats the minutiae of everyday life as if recounting the story from the protagonist’s point of view, living every minute of every day.

As a reader I don’t need to know he (the hero) got up and used the bathroom, made breakfast, etc., etc. For God’s sake get to the story plot and development! I’m being crushed with boredom waiting for something important to happen. I know real life is long periods of routine interspersed by occasional exciting events, but I don’t want to read that, I want to read the exciting events. A novel should be a plot and scenes that lead through that plot to the climax and resolution. Not a day by day account of everyday living, that is like watching paint dry, endless waiting, reading through nothing.

As a writer you surely have to ask yourself a few simple questions about each chapter you write. I usually prefer short chapters, around 2k, 3k words, but could go to 5k, 6k. I’ve read chapters of 8k, 10k, I find them long, which is normal, they are. But the question you have to ask is what is the event, or events, in this chapter that drive the plot? What happens, how important is it? If nothing much happens and what does isn’t very important, then do you need it in the story? I often have the impression that 100k words are written, when 30k or 40k would have been much better. All that waffle about nothing destroys a good book.

I would much rather read a 20k book full of all those discoveries and plot twists than the same expanded to 100k that has nothing extra to it, other than telling us how our protagonist got up, took a shower and had breakfast, everyday.

What do you think?

 

Hey, Talo! Great post.

There are lessons many of us have to learn, and one of them is balance. Yes, I suppose it would be nice to skim through and just read the 'story plot and development' stuff, but there is a beauty to writing that flows, gives us pertinent information, and also inlays those little moments that help us navigate from scene to scene. Teeth brushing is boring. Banter between two men while the ablutions are happening, isn't, or at least, doesn't need to be. Done right, these little bridges can be a great opportunity to entertain the reader, as well as a chance to insert something that becomes important later... part of the 'weaving,' if you will. 

I get your point, though, and I agree that drowning the reader in minutiae is something we must guard against. At the same time, I have read stories--scenes--that are too 'clean' and don't reach their full potential in my opinion. Matter-of-fact writing has its place... just not in fiction, unless you are quoting a manual.   Hence the balance. It can take time to learn, and the proof is in the pudding. If readers are sticking with us, we are doing something right... generally speaking.

"But the question you have to ask is what is the event, or events, in this chapter that drive the plot? What happens, how important is it? If nothing much happens and what does isn’t very important, then do you need it in the story?" 

Food for thought. In reading, there have been moments (scenes) in stories, seemingly unimportant ones, that have stuck with me for a long time. Maybe they have triggered a memory, or simply made me think, get some insight, or feel sudden emotion. Could the story do without that moment? Sure, but it would lose something intangible... that magic that makes it less a story and more of a reading experience. Just saying... cheers... Gary....

Edited August 12, 2019 by Headstall

[S.L. Lewis]

As a reader, reading minute by minute scenes can annoy the ever loving fuck out of me. But, if done right, scenes that add a bit of normalcy to the book allows me to calm down for the next bit of major plot movement. 

I call those scenes the "From Point A to Point C" scenes. When done right, they're transitional. You go from one exciting plot point to the next, allowing you to follow it and flow with the story. 

As a writer, I use these. Sometimes my character does something mundane like make breakfast while another watches them. It shows their emotions and thoughts for each other without stating. That's adding character depth to my stories. 

Sometimes it'll be just them talking. Details in the dialogue hint at what is to come or give a quick run down of what has happened. I use these scenes to give the reader the chance to put the story down, or if it's been a while since they've read it, to pick up the thread with ease. 

Story fluff for the sake of story fluff: Not such a good idea.

Story fluff for the sake of helping to fill in blanks, to fill in character development, something, anything: a good idea. 

Then again, lately my stories have run into the 100K word range on my longer stories and each scene is planned out for a reason. 

[Brayon]

Some Writing Guidelines:

1. It's your story you're telling, so write it however you want to.

2. If a reader complains about your story, refer to guideline one.

Enough said.

 

[CassieQ]

I like what Kurt Vonnegut said:  Every sentence must do one of two things--reveal character or advance the action.  

[CassieQ]

On 8/12/2019 at 11:54 AM, Brayon said:

Some Writing Guidelines:

1. It's your story you're telling, so write it however you want to.

2. If a reader complains about your story, refer to guideline one.

Enough said.

 

While guideline one is fine if you are just writing for yourself, if a reader told me that a scene where my character is brushing their teeth is boring as hell, I would at least take it into consideration.  Maybe I'm the odd one out, though.  

[Talo Segura]

I was looking around for a story to read after James Carnarvon's Summer of the Firefly, and it is difficult to find anything comparable. I take note of reviews and comments, chapter comments for new stories, and I have to say this, first chapters are easy to write. Perhaps if you write a great first chapter, but don't have a clue about where the story is going, it should be left there as a short story. I've read author comments, or replies to comments, along the lines of, "I'm not really sure where things are going or how this will turn out," "I do tend to ramble on a bit." If you as the author don't know where your story is going and how it's going to end, what builds up to the end, then I as a reader sure as hell don't! Rambling on with characters interacting and seeing what pops up seems like the order of the day, but that is not a book. It might, or might not be entertaining, and gather an audience. However, if you are writing a book, it is not a beginning followed be the characters lives for the next umpteen chapters. A book is a story with a plot, twists and turns, discoveries, a climax, and an ending. The rest is soap opera, which maybe should have a genre of its own. It has its place, the series of stories about characters people love and what happens to them. It's not what I'm looking for when I pick up a book, but that's me as a reader wanting, if you wish to make an analogy, to watch a good film and not season one, two, and three of a TV series. What is your preference, a good book or a soap opera? I'd love to make a poll and get reader numbers. And I should add, I don't mean to denigrate soap operas, Game of Thrones etc. have been a big success. And yes, those "soap operas," series, do have their climaxes and drama, but they do also ramble on. It's the characters and world created that seem important over and above the story (or stories, because there's hundreds of stories).

[Carlos Hazday]

Just remember taste varies amongst writers and readers. Not everyone likes the same things.

Romance stories full of angst and/or saccharine endearments are extremely popular but I despise them. Same for stories involving kids having sex. Even though I've written a couple of sex scenes involving a 15yo, I find those stories repulsive these days. In an age where the wrongdoings of Jeffrey Epstein, Boy Scouts' leaders, and Catholic priests are in the news, all those tales of kids having sex come too close to pedophilia for my taste.

Give me something that connects me to real life, mundane events, and I'm much happier.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Carlos Hazday

[Talo Segura]

19 minutes ago, Carlos Hazday said:

all those tales of kids having sex come too close to pedophilia for my taste.

But we don't need to demonise an aspect of sexuality either because we don't like it or don't approve. Child, or perhaps I should say teenage sexuality is a hot potato, but it should be up for discussion and not hidden away. When I was thirteen I'd have loved to meet someone older and have more than a platonic relationship. There's a legal age of consent, but like everything else, it changes with the morals of the moment. The watch word is abuse, abuse of trust, position, influence, but it does happen there's agreement and then you have to ask, can a thirteen year old decide for themselves, and my answer is that I could when I was that thirteen year old. I wasn't stupid, I knew what was going on, even if I had no experience. So we have to talk openly about things and not blankly condemn just like people can say homosexuality is abhorrent and condemn it.

[Carlos Hazday]

At my age, I'm somewhat inflexible. Writers can write what they want and readers can read what the like, but I have my own values and will stick to them. Someone's interested in reading/writing about kids having sex, go to it.

Funny you deem my comment as a blanket statement and suggest my thinking may be too limited, yet you make a similar comment about what should be considered a good story. Can't have it both ways, bubba. You're entitled to your opinions as am I and are other readers. That was the opening line of my comment.

None of us have a lock on what a proper story should be, and anyone who thinks they do is fooling themself.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Carlos Hazday

[Talo Segura]

16 minutes ago, Carlos Hazday said:

you make a similar comment about what should be considered a good story

You're right, my only get out of jail card is that the statement was intended to open discussion. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, I like to discuss them, I might change how I think about something if presented with a good argument. I don't think I have too many fixed ideas, but someone might prove me wrong on that statement. I hope I take account of what people say and that I am able to change how I think about things.

[LJCC]

That's why telling is an integral skill that most writers gain from experience, I guess. Gabriel Garcia Marquez utilises telling so well that the first few pages of his Love At The Time of Cholera shift from telling and showing without you realising which is which. You'd know it's a good story if it switches from Telling into Showing without sounding jarring...and I guess that breaks the monotony of reading: "He went to the store and grabbed a ladle and decided to get a bigger ladle once he got to the checkout." x100 similar outlines spread across the story. 

As for story length, the chapter format isn't necessarily realistic if you're planning on having your work published, unless of course it's already segmented into parts as you're writing it. Or you've already outlined everything even before writing the story. I really have no complaints if the author posts a 15k chapter, as long as it's INTEGRAL to the storyline. 

I honestly forgot about this novel I read in college. The first part was like 20k words of mundane repetitive actions that drove the character to do the same chores over and over again. And then it slowly informed the reader that the character was living in a loophole with his OCD. The story then suddenly morphs into a full-blown sci-fi novel with talking ducks and whatnots. I had to reread the first part because as I got to the middle part; I realised that the coffee jar was the only thing in the kitchen where the character had to go to the supermarket because it kept on running lower than usual. It felt as if someone in the real dimension was drinking coffee at the same time as the same character in the same house...which turned out to be the character's doppelganger in the loophole universe who got switched to be him in the real world. 

And I'd imagine if the author of that novel posts it here as the first chapter, where the context of the reason why it was written that way would be explained in, let's say, 3rd chapter, I wonder how many readers would be turned off'd by how it was written. I just think the chapter format doesn't necessarily apply to some genre's. And it really is the writer's prerogrative to stick to his/her guns on how he/she would like his story to progress in the manner of how he/she'd imagine it. 

Of course, I'm referring to stories that are written well. No shade. Hahaha.

[Warrior1]

Things should always be concise and precise. Meaningless details that don't contribute meaningfully to the story should be discarded. We don't need to know every little detail -- sure if they add to the plot, helps in developing the characters, or provide information, or add to the tone/mood of the story, or is amusing, then fine. But useless details that don't add any value to a story, but only put because the writer thought of it, should be discarded.

[DarkBishop]

I agree 100%. When I’m reading I would rather get to the point...but I find myself also enjoying a little of the boring stuff.

i guess expect our hero to jump right out of bed and put on his cape and go fight a mafia of monsters. It’s that, Clark Kent idea that you still want to see the superhero standing in the famous shower scene where he’s under the water and his leg is forward a little to hide his unmentionables. 

Yes, I don’t wanna see every shower—wait a minute what am I saying?—but I think personally it’s good to have some, but not overdue it. It’s like almost that you want to create beats to slow down stuff. 

But if there are smaller chapters then you have a chance to read more. 

[Thorn Wilde]

Some mundane detail can add a lot of life to a story. I often describe what my characters are eating, for instance. Dinner table conversation can be a great way of showing the reader what a character is like. Thoughts in the shower, a moment watching TV with a loved one, little things that may seem trivial, can add a lot to the story if done right. Of course, that's the key phrase here, 'done right'.