What do you do?

[Cris L]

I've been a member of this site since 2004 and read some wonderful stories on here. 

I've made friends with a few authors (OK only 2), who have become real life friends, and who produced amazing stories that touched me.

 

However mixed in with the really good stuff, has been some truly awful stuff. Stuff so bad that I didnt know what to say or do?

So, I have kept my big mouth shut. 

 

So, I am wondering 2 things?

1. Is there any kind of Quality Control on GA?

2. What do you do in this situation?

[James K]

@Cris L I have read stories here and elsewhere on other sites, I only joined recently because I wanted to reply on the forum to a topic, but I also decided to post my first story.

To address your question, I think you do what you have been doing for many years and read the stories you like and are well written and leave the others aside. To encourage those writers you enjoy, a comment or a like goes a long way, perhaps a suggestion (in private) by personal message to a not so good writer might help them. There is quality control, of sorts, on some other sites, however, whether on those other sites it is really quality that counts or the tastes of the site owner, I pose the question.

In an amateur writing context you need to be generous in your appraisal of the writing, and I think it is a wonderful resource which is open to anyone to post their work here. Maybe those poor quality writers will improve, few people are a natural born genious although admittedly their are those with talent and potential and those without, that's life!

[ReaderPaul]

6 hours ago, Cris L said:

I've been a member of this site since 2004 and read some wonderful stories on here. 

I've made friends with a few authors (OK only 2), who have become real life friends, and who produced amazing stories that touched me.

However mixed in with the really good stuff, has been some truly awful stuff. Stuff so bad that I didn't know what to say or do?

So, I have kept my big mouth shut. 

So, I am wondering 2 things?

1. Is there any kind of Quality Control on GA?

2. What do you do in this situation?

On this particular thing, I tend to agree with @James K, up to a point.  There is quality control on GA, but much of it is seeming to be more of a committee structure than a one-person-rule.  The site guidelines are stated in various places; some of your dissatisfaction probably comes from the fact that your tastes (and mine) often differ from that author.  That does not mean that, if you or if I dislike a story, that it is a bad story.  But it may not be to our personal taste or tastes.

There have been times I disliked a story and did not finish it.  Then things in my life and thinking changed, and I was able to start the story again and enjoy it and finish it.  The story was the same; my understanding of some things had changed.

At least two of the sites which publish gay and/or erotic stories have to pass "the taste of the website owner" test.  At least two of the sites I frequent, the owners have said, almost in these exact words, "If I don't like a story, or it does not meet the stated guidelines, sometimes both, it will not be published  on my site."  

In addition, it can be very easy for an author to be too argumentative with and too disrespectful toward other readers of that site, and leave a foul taste in the proverbial mouth and throat of those who run, manage, or own the sites, or those who have great influence on the owner or owners of the site.

So, @Cris L, I think if you do not like a particular story, do not comment -- and do not post negative stuff on a public board, unless of a minor nature -- and also do not push for types of stories which are banned by the stated guidelines of the site.  Any criticism which might be considered major should be in private to the author, and in as diplomatic a form as you can possibly make it.  If the story violates the stated guidelines of the site, then report it to the webmaster, site owner, or oversight committee in private.  I have found these methods to be most effective in dealing with such situations.

Edited November 12, 2021 by ReaderPaul

[Carlos Hazday]

7 hours ago, Cris L said:

I've been a member of this site since 2004 and read some wonderful stories on here. 

I've made friends with a few authors (OK only 2), who have become real life friends, and who produced amazing stories that touched me.

 

However mixed in with the really good stuff, has been some truly awful stuff. Stuff so bad that I didnt know what to say or do?

So, I have kept my big mouth shut. 

 

So, I am wondering 2 things?

1. Is there any kind of Quality Control on GA?

2. What do you do in this situation?

You can tell me when you dislike something of mine. I promise not to melt the way some would. A few authors around here are set in their ways and no matter how long they do it, there seems to be little improvement.  My list of individuals to ignore is substantial, and I'm certain I'm on similar ones created by others. 

[northie]

I find most written-by-rote romance stories complete drivel. Yet they're generally hugely popular. I accept they're not my cup of tea and move on. Equally, I realise my British, slice-of-life, few HEA stories are only of interest to a comparatively small proportion of the GA readership. Different interests, different experiences.

As to quality... Yes, it varies. Bear in mind though, the site is free to access and writers do not get paid in any form. Those writers who see writing as a craft that needs to worked at, will do so. Writers at GA are encouraged to use beta-readers and editors but if they actively decide not to, that's their choice. There is however a grey area as well when newer writers may struggle to find the editorial help they'd wish for. Likes, recommendations, and comments sometimes have little to do with writing quality. In that case, it's easy to see why the writer might feel there's little pressure to improve.

I, for one, encourage respectful, constructive criticism. I've learnt a lot that way. But those words 'respectful' and 'constructive' are important. Also, I've learnt never to assume all authors welcome criticism - openly or in private. Stories here are not being critiqued prior to commercial publication. If an author over time gives little impression of improvement or expanding their creative horizons, it's usually a safe bet they will not respond favourably to criticism, however couched.

Edited November 12, 2021 by northie
Reflections after a comment

[Myr]

This is a subject that comes up from time to time and is inherit in any place that has more or less open posting of content.  For me personally, I can forgive a whole hell of a lot of issues in a story if it has interesting characters and interesting events in an interesting setting.  I'll take 100 grammar disaster stories that have those elements than a grammar perfect story that can be summarized as "The paint dried. Slowly."  @Cia is at the opposite end and will chase you with a red pencil until every participle stops dangling.  So everyone has different tastes and different priorities.  And those change depending on mood, time, and your age as you grow and change as a person.  Your favorite story at age 10 is probably not your favorite story at age 20.

There are two sides of quality control on stories as I see it.  Grammar and Content.  You have to be at least coherent grammatically to get out of the Moderation Queue.  We also require you to build up story reputation through reactions before an author is cleared from our moderation queue.  You would be shocked and dismayed at some of the stuff that never makes it up on site.  *shudders*

Content.  This is the story part of the story.  Stories are meant to be entertaining or to provoke thought or both, typically.  Psychologically speaking, humans are hard-wired for stories. It's how we learn, grow and pass information to each other. When reading, some people like to read and reread old favorites. Comfort stories.  Others like exploring new grounds and new things. Still others, want to explore difficult topics from different directions.  Stories are what allow this to occur.  Exploring "what ifs", even the uncomfortable ones.

This brings us to the restricted or limited content and taboos.  Outside of some hard limits imposed upon us by the hypocrites at Google, which our site rules are based on, my personal approach is "as long as it is properly labeled and rated" we should minimize interference and allow it to exist.  And if you don't like it, don't read it.  Site surveys and read data do show sex is quite popular in stories.  We require some semblance of plot instead of allowing straight out dedicated erotica. If you want that, Nifty.org is an excellent resource.  Other subjects are "taboo" and explore, through story, difficult topics.  There are stories on the site that push all sorts of rules and boundaries.  But that is rather the point of the thought provoking stories.  Whether or not you wish to be provoked on said subject is down to personal taste. 

We do ask that authors properly label their stories with appropriate notes and trigger warnings where appropriate.  And we ask that readers respect those notes or alert staff to the need for more notes if they are lacking.  The report feature can be used for this.

What you should most certainly NOT do is report a story after interpreting the rules for the site staff by saying "This story violates the rules and needs to be removed."  It's not your business.  We do not tolerate the book burners here.  Whether they are the Christian Fundamentalists of my youth blocking gay books from stores and libraries or the blue haired vagina equipped males with a birth name of Karen doing some Twitter Warrior bullshit, the answer is the same. "If you don't like it, don't read it!"

And again, if you walked into some content that wasn't properly labeled that does genuinely disturb you, it is appropriate to report the story politely so that staff can add the additional information to the story.

[C. Henderson]

21 hours ago, James K said:

@Cris L I have read stories here and elsewhere on other sites, I only joined recently because I wanted to reply on the forum to a topic, but I also decided to post my first story.

To address your question, I think you do what you have been doing for many years and read the stories you like and are well written and leave the others aside. To encourage those writers you enjoy, a comment or a like goes a long way, perhaps a suggestion (in private) by personal message to a not so good writer might help them. There is quality control, of sorts, on some other sites, however, whether on those other sites it is really quality that counts or the tastes of the site owner, I pose the question.

In an amateur writing context you need to be generous in your appraisal of the writing, and I think it is a wonderful resource which is open to anyone to post their work here. Maybe those poor quality writers will improve, few people are a natural born genious although admittedly their are those with talent and potential and those without, that's life!

A diplomatic and kind response to a somewhat mean-spirited question. I wonder what the original poster suggests should be done about the authors he deems not up to his standard 🤔

[Cris L]

21 hours ago, Carlos Hazday said:

You can tell me when you dislike something of mine. 

Carlos, for sure it ain't your writing. 

On your worst day your writing is about a gazillion times better than what I'm thinking of. 

[JamesSavik]

Drama occurs at the sharp edges of life where there is conflict and struggle.

Drama occurs in war, disaster, crime, bad relationships, middle school and all sorts of uncomfortable places.

Authors take you there, but it's the reader's choice whether they go.

When there is a mature content or abuse warning, and I'm pretty good about placing them, you proceed at your own psychic risk.

Authors are offering you a magic carpet ride.

To make it interesting, sometimes we take you through some bad neighborhoods.

Some people will love that ride. Others will barf.

Revel in the freedom of making that choice for yourself and not letting the bastards below decide what you can and cannot read.

.

You might think no, that could never happen.

Think again. Before 2021, did you ever in your wildest dreams imagine you might lose your job over a vaccination for a bad cold?

There are those people who have a compulsion is to control others that's like a sickness with them. Many people call them Karen's. 👺

There are those people (like me) who live to give Karen the finger. 🖕

Who do you suppose has more fun? 😎

 

 

 

[Cris L]

On 11/12/2021 at 3:05 PM, James K said:

@Cris L I have read stories here and elsewhere on other sites, I only joined recently because I wanted to reply on the forum to a topic, but I also decided to post my first story.

To address your question, I think you do what you have been doing for many years and read the stories you like and are well written and leave the others aside. To encourage those writers you enjoy, a comment or a like goes a long way, perhaps a suggestion (in private) by personal message to a not so good writer might help them. There is quality control, of sorts, on some other sites, however, whether on those other sites it is really quality that counts or the tastes of the site owner, I pose the question.

In an amateur writing context you need to be generous in your appraisal of the writing, and I think it is a wonderful resource which is open to anyone to post their work here. Maybe those poor quality writers will improve, few people are a natural born genious although admittedly their are those with talent and potential and those without, that's life!

I totally get that I don't always enjoy a story because I don't like something. That doesn't make it a bad story. Just one I do not enjoy. 

I'm talking about the stories that are truly bad. "Like watching paint dry. Slowly!" 

[Cris L]

2 hours ago, C. Henderson said:

A diplomatic and kind response to a somewhat mean-spirited question. I wonder what the original poster suggests should be done about the authors he deems not up to his standard 🤔

It's not about my standard. 

I'm not an author because my writing could best be described as truly awful. I acknowledged and accept that. 

However I'd never put myself through the indignity of letting anyone read my writing.

[Cris L]

17 hours ago, Myr said:

This is a subject that comes up from time to time and is inherit in any place that has more or less open posting of content.  For me personally, I can forgive a whole hell of a lot of issues in a story if it has interesting characters and interesting events in an interesting setting.  I'll take 100 grammar disaster stories that have those elements than a grammar perfect story that can be summarized as "The paint dried. Slowly."  @Cia is at the opposite end and will chase you with a red pencil until every participle stops dangling.  So everyone has different tastes and different priorities.  And those change depending on mood, time, and your age as you grow and change as a person.  Your favorite story at age 10 is probably not your favorite story at age 20.

There are two sides of quality control on stories as I see it.  Grammar and Content.  You have to be at least coherent grammatically to get out of the Moderation Queue.  We also require you to build up story reputation through reactions before an author is cleared from our moderation queue.  You would be shocked and dismayed at some of the stuff that never makes it up on site.  *shudders*

Content.  This is the story part of the story.  Stories are meant to be entertaining or to provoke thought or both, typically.  Psychologically speaking, humans are hard-wired for stories. It's how we learn, grow and pass information to each other. When reading, some people like to read and reread old favorites. Comfort stories.  Others like exploring new grounds and new things. Still others, want to explore difficult topics from different directions.  Stories are what allow this to occur.  Exploring "what ifs", even the uncomfortable ones.

This brings us to the restricted or limited content and taboos.  Outside of some hard limits imposed upon us by the hypocrites at Google, which our site rules are based on, my personal approach is "as long as it is properly labeled and rated" we should minimize interference and allow it to exist.  And if you don't like it, don't read it.  Site surveys and read data do show sex is quite popular in stories.  We require some semblance of plot instead of allowing straight out dedicated erotica. If you want that, Nifty.org is an excellent resource.  Other subjects are "taboo" and explore, through story, difficult topics.  There are stories on the site that push all sorts of rules and boundaries.  But that is rather the point of the thought provoking stories.  Whether or not you wish to be provoked on said subject is down to personal taste. 

We do ask that authors properly label their stories with appropriate notes and trigger warnings where appropriate.  And we ask that readers respect those notes or alert staff to the need for more notes if they are lacking.  The report feature can be used for this.

What you should most certainly NOT do is report a story after interpreting the rules for the site staff by saying "This story violates the rules and needs to be removed."  It's not your business.  We do not tolerate the book burners here.  Whether they are the Christian Fundamentalists of my youth blocking gay books from stores and libraries or the blue haired vagina equipped males with a birth name of Karen doing some Twitter Warrior bullshit, the answer is the same. "If you don't like it, don't read it!"

And again, if you walked into some content that wasn't properly labeled that does genuinely disturb you, it is appropriate to report the story politely so that staff can add the additional information to the story.

Thank you for your perspective.

I've never reported a story, and simply can't imagine the need to, on GA. 

The single point of my original question was what do others do/feel/how they react in response to stories that are simply exceptionally poorly written. 

[C. Henderson]

20 minutes ago, Cris L said:

It's not about my standard. 

I'm not an author because my writing could best be described as truly awful. I acknowledged and accept that. 

However I'd never put myself through the indignity of letting anyone read my writing.

I'm confused about the point of this post. You're asking others how they react when they stumble upon exceptionally poor written stories on GA, what they do about it, and whether GA does any sort of quality control. Are you suggesting that there should be stricter quality control and that some writers should not be allowed to post?

If you're not suggesting that, then it seems the solution is pretty simple. What do you do in real life when you stumble upon a person you do not enjoy spending time with? You ignore them.

[James K]

22 minutes ago, Cris L said:

The single point of my original question was what do others do/feel/how they react in response to stories that are simply exceptionally poorly written. 

Your thread is getting hijacked into comments on story content and themes, when your point is all about the quality of the writing, and let's be honest, you have a perfectly good point. Everybody and their dog believes they can write a book, some can, others can't, some writing is not bad, some is exceptionally good, and other stuff is simply dreadful. We are talking writing quality, the writing of reasonably good English.

For those exceptionally poorly written stories, and I have read the paint drying sagas that go on forever and describe each excruciating detail of the protagonist's life, from morning to dusk, not omiting brushing their teeth and visiting the bathroom, and I was astonished when another reader thought such writting simply amazing! What I do is I don't read it. Everyone  has different ideas about what is good writing although standards do exist, evident through the classic English literature that is used in education, but here for the most part you read it or you leave it.

[Myr]

6 hours ago, James K said:

Your thread is getting hijacked into comments on story content and themes, when your point is all about the quality of the writing

The original post was vague enough that the staff of the site wasn't sure if it was a grammar thing or a specific content thing. At the same time, we have regular contacts with people that object in one way or another to stories. I chose to address both possible issues with my post.

6 hours ago, Cris L said:

I've never reported a story, and simply can't imagine the need to, on GA. 

I never said you did.  This is a public post that is trending on the site, so everything I wrote wasn't in direct response to you. As with much of the things I do on site, it is to address multiple issues at once.  I also gave a broad answer because your post wasn't specific.  It could be, and was, read in multiple ways which is why I was alerted to the post and responded the way I did.

[Dodger]

I don’t think the quality of writing is a huge problem on GA, but my expectations aren’t super high either. It’s reasonably easy for anyone to post a story on this site. You don’t have to prove your competence or even have any previous experience. A basic high school understanding of grammar and a somewhat coherent story should get most wannabe authors past the moderation queue, and from there, you either sink or swim.

I believe it’s self-regulatory. Content is judged by your peers and site members and counted not so much in likes and comments but by the lack of them. Poor grammar and storylines aren’t rewarded, so unless you have the skin of a rhinoceros, you either have to knuckle down and improve or hold your hands up and admit that you’re probably not a future contender for a Pulitzer Prize.

I know I’m not the only one who cringes whenever I read my early chapters or stories, and I hope in the future I’ll be cringing at the stuff I’m writing now because that’s how it works. I’m pleased with my progress, but I always want to get better, and I know I’ll never be satisfied. The point I’m trying to make is, I’m sure a lot of good authors would not have made it onto the site if the bar had been set any higher because, for many, this was their first attempt at fiction.

I probably only scraped in as it is, and maybe some wished I hadn’t, but like most authors here, I’m a work in progress and GA is geared towards helping writers hone their skills. I like this part because there’s an abundance of free advice and articles covering every aspect of writing, as well as author promotions—however rare—to encourage improvement.

It works all ways because the site has without doubt benefitted by discovering and hosting some truly talented authors, and the readers have free access to thousands of great stories, including mine! Okay, so maybe not all of them are quality fiction, and some may even border on the unreadable, but it’s a necessary evil. You take the rough with the smooth and spit out what you don’t like!

Edited November 13, 2021 by Dodger

[Cia]

18 hours ago, Cris L said:

I totally get that I don't always enjoy a story because I don't like something. That doesn't make it a bad story. Just one I do not enjoy. 

I'm talking about the stories that are truly bad. "Like watching paint dry. Slowly!" 

"Truly bad" is still your measurement, and it's subjective from your point of view. Everyone starts somewhere, too, so we do allow developing authors to post because how else will they learn the craft but by doing and interacting with other authors and readers? My first few stories are horrendous. Sure, I might have had creative ideas, but my form and editing was horrible. This is where the axiom of "If you don't enjoy it, just don't read it" comes in that Myr mentioned. There's nothing that "needs to be done" about content (plot, characters, or edit) you feels is bad that has cleared the moderation queue because the stick you're holding it up to is just your personal preference, unless there's something that may need a trigger warning which Myr also mentioned. GA's community, as a whole but especially among our authors, is very supportive in a positive fashion rather than critical. Approaching your thoughts from the angle of "how can readers help site authors improve" rather than "what should be done about the truly bad stories" would most likely be better received. 

[JamesSavik]

I try to be kind evaluating writers- especially rookies.

No matter how bad their stuff is, I can look back at some of my earlier work and find worse. 😦

Writing is like everything else. You only get better by working at it.

Oh, sure. There are the rare prodigies and their every line is brilliant, but most of us have to work at it.

Sometimes it works.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes you hit the ball over the fence.

Sometimes you run into the fence.

This is an art, not a science.

[Mancunian]

On the point of quality control let's be honest, it does exist it's in the form of the readers and site members as the numbers of those that read, leave feedback and comments judge the quality and most authors tend to take notice and improve. 

The point of being good or bad is subjective to one's own opinion, the old saying of 'one man's rubbish is another man' treasure' comes to mind and who are we to judge anyone's taste just because it isn't our own.

Previous contributors have said that constructive criticism can help an author to develop and improve and this I agree with so maybe that is something that those who do not comment should consider. As some have suggested those comments may be better made in the form of a personal message as opposed to being publicly made, but before any comment is made consider how it may come across to the receiver as sometimes it could come across badly and cause offence so a choice of words or phrasing is critical when making such comments.

I have never previously considered myself a writer and still don't but I have found some pleasure (and therapeutic benefit) in writing the few offerings that I have posted, some have enjoyed reading them others have not I know that from reactions and comments left, some have read without reaction or comment and that is their prerogative, while others have just ignored for reasons of their own again that is their prerogative. I hope that what I have posted has improved over time but only others can judge and let me know that. I'm sure that some can relate to this part. 

We all have remember that authors publish for many different reasons be that personal pleasure, a wish to improve on a skill, therapeutic reasons, may be to 'discover' themselves and a whole host of other reasons. If we start 'book burning' and otherwise not allow members to post we deprive others of realising hopes and dreams which are as varied as the reasons that they write. For some it may be that it is their only means of communicating meaningfully with others and who are we to to take that away from them.

In conclusion I feel that the current system is good and not broken, so let's not try to fix what isn't broken and leave it as it is.

[W_L]

@Cris L I've been around for a while now as well and my writing quality has changed over the years.

If you are talking about quality like editing:

I'm not inexperienced as a writer, I know where my weaknesses are like grammar. I try to seek editors when I write, but it's not always easy. I've started using Grammarly, but that's not as good as a dedicated editor would be.

That's the thing about amateur writers, we may have great ideas and stories to tell, but it's hard to polish them without a dedicated writing support team. All our editors are volunteers and I can't ask them to do this for me out of their valuable time and schedules, just like my own.

------------

In terms of story plot quality:

As an older writer, I have actively volunteered to help others with story concepts and plotting. As a beta reader, I focus on the story and how it should progress. As an avid reader, I can feel out how plots are supposed to move and what characters motivations are leading them towards based on an author's plot, so I endeavor to help them move along logically to their goals. You don't have to have read over several hundred books like me to do this, just be willing to absorb and release what ideas you gathered from life is enough as a prerequisite.

I highly advise other readers and writers to consider being beta-readers for authors, even if you are not great at grammar like me, the experience of having unique life experiences and understanding character motivations help writers improve their stories.

------

In the end, GA's quality control to me is based on the willingness of the community to support one another and desire to read new stories, poetry, or reference material. We should try our best to support each other, do what we can with what we are able to offer, and make the final story something engaging.

Edited November 14, 2021 by W_L

[BigBen]

I don't believe it is appropriate for random readers on a site like this to try to offer criticism, however kindly intended.  In order to be constructive, criticism has to be offered in the context of an established relationship of trust and friendship.

There is too much room for misinterpretation in comments on a site such as this one.  Better to be positive, or else say nothing at all—and sometimes even a comment the poster considers positive can sound hurtful to the author.

Given all that, it would seem that the only practical course to take, whether a work is not to one's taste or not up to one's standards, is simply to move on to some other story.