readers Readers, What Do You Skip?

[northie]

Dialogue with 'said ...' following every time ('stated' is a particular bug bear) is something I find irritating. Repetitive description of characters' characteristics - hair colour noticed every time, for example, is another thing I don't like. The level of general description I'd like varies. For short stories it can be really sparse, just enough to place it in time and space. For anything longer, more detail is necessary, otherwise I find I can't connect with it on the right level. But, as has already been said, excessive detail is a killer. I don't want to feel as though I'm wading through verbiage to get to the actual story. 

 

As Wildone has already mentioned, description of sex is another problematical area for me. I enjoy it up to a certain level, but once it starts to get excessively anatomical, I start to squirm. Imagination is a powerful tool ... Oh, and don't describe it using flowery or excessive metaphors.

 

Basic grammar, syntax and spelling do matter. Why should our readers be expected to filter a story out of a mess of misspellings, and incoherence? I'm not perfect, but I do try, and where possible, I learn. 

 

In my book, less is more. I'm much more likely to employ my imagination than I am to waste my meagre reading time wading through page after page of description.

[Dayne Mora]

Anything that reads like something one of my students would have turned in....

 

Also not a fan of the get-up-and-look-in-a-mirror school of character development.

[CassieQ]

2 hours ago, northie said:

Dialogue with 'said ...' following every time ('stated' is a particular bug bear) is something I find irritating. Repetitive description of characters' characteristics - hair colour noticed every time, for example, is another thing I don't like. The level of general description I'd like varies. For short stories it can be really sparse, just enough to place it in time and space. For anything longer, more detail is necessary, otherwise I find I can't connect with it on the right level. But, as has already been said, excessive detail is a killer. I don't want to feel as though I'm wading through verbiage to get to the actual story. 

 

As Wildone has already mentioned, description of sex is another problematical area for me. I enjoy it up to a certain level, but once it starts to get excessively anatomical, I start to squirm. Imagination is a powerful tool ... Oh, and don't describe it using flowery or excessive metaphors.

 

Basic grammar, syntax and spelling do matter. Why should our readers be expected to filter a story out of a mess of misspellings, and incoherence? I'm not perfect, but I do try, and where possible, I learn. 

 

In my book, less is more. I'm much more likely to employ my imagination than I am to waste my meagre reading time wading through page after page of description.

I think using said with dialogue is acceptable, as long as it is not every single sentence.  People should be able to tell who is speaking through dialogue.  What drives me crazy is anything aside from said, asked and occasionally, exclaimed.     

[Dahawk]

I have suffered criticism from certain individuals for supposedly having extra spaces, words without spacing, etc. Unfortunately, those individuals are using apple related products to view the stories. The faithful readers I have are mostly all on windows and they suffer no such complaints because there is no issue with formatting. I can say some of the ruthless reviews people leave to make themselves feel better will drive new writers off, which is a shame. I as a writer don't mind constructive criticism, but to be a blatant douche to writers is ridiculous. It's as simple as if you don't like a writer or their stories just don't read it. Most writers on the site use Grammarly, which will occasionally do stupid stuff at trying to change out a word or do some weird stuff for punctuation. My only thought is don't rip new writer's down to point of driving them off the site, I can't thank Cia enough when I first started posting my original story on the site and he helped me so much with recommendations, and exercised a lot of patience with me asking questions which I can't ever thank him enough. Being inexperienced at writing I think most new authors would appreciate common human decency is if you have constructive criticism, private message them and relay it without humiliating them. This community has a lot of wonderful people that will support new writers.However, it takes only a handful of people to destroy one's confidence at putting themselves out there before they say they have had enough.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Dahawk

[Cia]

16 minutes ago, Dahawk said:

I have suffered criticism from certain individuals for supposedly having extra spaces, words without spacing, etc. Unfortunately, those individuals are using apple related products to view the stories. The faithful readers I have are mostly all on windows and they suffer no such complaints because there is no issue with formatting. I can say some of the ruthless reviews people leave to make themselves feel better will drive new writers off, which is a shame. I as a writer don't mind constructive criticism, but to be a blatant douche to writers is ridiculous. It's as simple as if you don't like a writer or their stories just don't read it. Most writers on the site use Grammarly, which will occasionally do stupid stuff at trying to change out a word or do some weird stuff for punctuation. My only thought is don't rip new writer's down to point of driving them off the site, I can't thank Cia enough when I first started posting my original story on the site and he helped me so much with recommendations, and exercised a lot of patience with me asking questions which I can't ever thank him enough. Being inexperienced at writing I think most new authors would appreciate common human decency is if you have constructive criticism, private message them and relay it without humiliating them. This community has a lot of wonderful people that will support new writers.However, it takes only a handful of people to destroy one's confidence at putting themselves out there before they say they have had enough.

 

Yes, we have a lot of topics and blogs talking about how to critique rather than criticize, especially for newer, inexperienced authors. I'm glad that no one has been blatantly calling out specific authors or stories here, since that is definitely not the gist of this topic. It's hard to know what you're doing "wrong" for readers unless someone actually says something, which is the main element that the original post is trying to get everyone to share. How do authors  know what they skip (and what to avoid writing) unless we hear it from readers specific to our genre? The devil is definitely in the details, for sure! Speaking of details, you've made an assumption I've actually had happen quite a few times over the years... I'm a woman, not a man, lol. It's definitely made writing in this niche harder because I have to be so careful not to feminize my male characters like so many male readers assume female MM authors write. That is something that irritates me as well, when we're talking about what you skip ahead (or skip a story altogether). I dislike male characters written to gay stereotypes (rich playboy, flighty twinks, or dumb but hot muscle bears, and I really dislike women tropes like the over-the-top best friend fag hag or the evil ex. 

[Dahawk]

Sorry Cia my mistake, I just felt people should realize to approach people with respect something we each teach our kids but sometimes need to be reminded.

[Cia]

1 hour ago, Dahawk said:

Sorry Cia my mistake, I just felt people should realize to approach people with respect something we each teach our kids but sometimes need to be reminded.

Well I am an author and editor, but I'm also a parent. I was previously a heavily-involved volunteer in my kids' schools K-7th grades, and now I work with high needs special ed students as a paraeducator as a day job. Teaching, and being respectful of how difficult it can be to learn something as complex as creative writing as well as technical writing skills, is something that falls within my skill set. I've lost my temper more than a time or two on the site, but mostly, we (staff) try to help members out in a kind fashion. And I know our writing/reading community tries as well, for the most part. 

[JayT]

11 hours ago, MacGreg said:

I've noticed this trend, too. If multiple stories contain the same characters, the author should connect them together as one story, not post them as individual pieces.

I'm kind of doing this right now by writing Scott's (a character in Chapter 1 of TJ) story. But I've added the story as a second book in a series. 

[Former Member]

I’m bothered by misspellings and grammatical errors. But I understand why one author (who seems to have been alluded to for several different issues) writes the way he does without editors, it’s because his writing is his therapy. I used to offer suggestions to him with corrections in my Comments, but gave up when I noticed that even though he appreciated the help, he wasn’t updating the chapter to fix the errors. (Sometimes descriptions of hair color and other characteristics are in-story thank you's or inside jokes.)

 

I'm actually more likely to PM an author when there’s a mistake that really bothers me.

 

But I’m tired of seeing the same incorrect homonyms being used. I hate it when authors use texting abbreviations out of context. Why don’t some people know when and where to use an apostrophe correctly? I understand and make allowances for non-native speakers, but their English is often much better than those of us who only speak a single language.

 

Sex scenes are boring. I really don’t want to read someone else’s fantasies. I’m not here to read porn.

[BDANR]

 

@Cia: Thank you for this informative and helpful topic! I learned a great deal from this :). Sometimes you don't know when you're doing something that may turn off readers. This has offered me good guidance.

@Narias1989: I'm the same. I'm pretty accepting and will give writers a chance to improve so I tend to look past a great deal. Spelling mistakes, mostly grammar, bother me far less than most.

 

But there are a few things that will make me start skipping or stop reading a story: 

• Dialogue: Admittedly, it's difficult to be good at it. Stilted dialogue was mentioned. Hearing how people talk to each other can improve this, noting body language and quirks. I enjoy authors who are good at describing human behavior and eliciting emotions without too many details. Which brings me to:
• Excess detail. Someone mentioned "stream of consciousness" narratives. Too much and monotonous information about someone's everyday life can be uninteresting. I fall into this trap as well. I prefer show over tell, though admittedly, telling sparingly works for me.

Maybe I can add more to this when I'm not headed off to work  !

Edited November 6, 2017 by BDANR

[Puppilull]

4 hours ago, Cia said:

... and I really dislike women tropes like the over-the-top best friend fag hag or the evil ex. 

 

Oh, I can't tell you how quickly this turns me off of a story! Come on, guys. We are women, not evil and strange aliens from a far away planet... 

[Sweetlion]

It might be a matter of personal preference, but as a non-native speaker I agree with @droughtquake that "broken" or "spoken" English is ok in dialogs, but I disliked it when it is present in the third party narrator, I actually find it distracting and annoys me.

I like intimate and sex scenes in a story, it might build the characters and make us connect to their relationship. But like spices sex scenes shouldn't be overused, in my opinion. I read stories where I felt the author forced a sex scene in almost every chapter, and no, it didn't add anything to the story, so mid story I as skipping some parts thinking "yeah I know how big it is, how you like to do X or Y, boring..."

 

I might read stories with stereotypes if they are good, but I admit that it gets tiring and they will never be a favorite story. I am particularly sensitive to gay-related stereotypes in gay themed stories, since "mainstream" are already full of it concerning lgbt people. Like all the young/small/nerd/asian (chose one or more) are emotionally fragile bottoms in need of saving by the older/muscle/jock/white rich top.

 

PS: after arguing for proper english, I apologise if there are some spelling mistakes 

[Former Member]

I forgot another over-used theme: the use of vast wealth to solve every problem.

 

It bothers me when the protagonist goes to great pains to tell us that he doesn’t like effeminate, flamboyant, and visually identifiably Gay people. How he’s not like those people. How he hates Gay ghettoes (and ends up creating his own mini-ghetto by the end of the story). I get it, some LGBTQs are butch, masculine, and macho. But differences should be celebrated, not denigrated. Being proud of your identity should not require insulting other people's identities and how they present.

 

I skip stories where large groups of previously very heterosexual young men suddenly turn Gay after the protagonist Comes Out in school. LGBTQ is not an infection. Straight boys don’t suddenly fall in love with each other just because they’ve been exposed to a classmate who is Gay. Whole schools do not switch sexual orientations! Most studies have found that LGBTQs are minority populations. A straight boy who experiments is still a straight boy – behavior is not the same as identity.

[Sam Wyer]

I usually stop reading when I feel that my expectations are being tested too much, or just not met.  For example, when a story starts out with a relatively realistic set-up and characters, but then relies on unrealistic elements to progress it.  I'm thinking of all of those terrible car accidents, parental deaths, and miscellaneous hospital admissions, not to mention the lottery winning, empire building, and secret benefactor moments.  If it's a fantasy (or even Fantasy), that's fine, but please be honest about that up front.  Similarly, when random relatives, friends, and colleagues start 'coming out' as gay and you end up with what must the gay-est school/office/business/family/whatever ever.

 

Now, I'm off to make coffee, and passing as I do, a mirror or other reflective surface into which I can stare, I'll also describe myself in tedious detail.....

[Former Member]

8 hours ago, Sam Wyer said:

Now, I'm off to make coffee, and passing as I do, a mirror or other reflective surface into which I can stare, I'll also describe myself in tedious detail.....

How much detail can there be? Just about every Legoland face looks like the others down to the Simpson-esque yellow color. Even the same slightly effeminate androgynous eyebrows! You’d think they all came out of a factory or something!  ;-)

 

Is this phrasing less offensive, @Sam Wyer?  ;-)

Edited November 6, 2017 by Former Member
Less offensive term?

[Sam Wyer]

2 minutes ago, droughtquake said:

How much detail can there be? Just about every Legoland face looks like the others down to the Simpson-esque yellow color. Even the same slightly effeminate eyebrows! You’d think they all came out of a factory or something!  ;-)

But notice how the light reflects off of my perfectly smooth and shiny skin, highlighting my box-ish beauty.  And my hard, equally perfectly smooth body...

 

But effeminate!?  I've always imagined it as 'slightly evil'.  

[Carlos Hazday]

Am I the only one who's read through all these comments and realized at some point I've managed to do something which alienates certain readers? My initial reaction is to become defensive: "Yes, I did that, but in this particular instance..." Insert appropriate justification after the ellipses. For many of the items brought up, there are times when an author using them fits with the story. I approached one of the members commenting on this thread trying to determine how bad I've been!

 

When I shared a preview of the first chapter of Summer asking for feedback, I was hammered for having too detailed an architectural description of a house. When I posted my first anthology entry, Allah's Revenge, Cia ripped me a new one and did it again when I included too much sex in a subsequent one. My primary editor, Mann Ramblings, must have pulled out half his hair when he worked on my first book in the series, the number of comments and corrections had a higher word count than the actual chapter (okay, slight exaggeration.)

 

I could have gotten upset and walked away but chose to listen to them because they had experience. Instead of quitting I chose to apply myself to a new craft and try to improve. I think I've learned a lot from all the criticism and it's reflected in subsequent work. At least @Mann Ramblings seems to enjoy my writing these days; his comments are often snide remarks and flight-of-fancy scenarios. When an artist shares their work--visual or written--with the public, they expose themselves to criticism. If we can't accept not everyone will like what we offer and some will let you know in clear language, we need to reconsider what we're doing.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Carlos Hazday

[Mikiesboy]

32 minutes ago, Carlos Hazday said:

Am I the only one who's read through all these comments and realized at some point I've managed to do something which alienates certain readers? My initial reaction is to become defensive: "Yes, I did that, but in this particular instance..." Insert appropriate justification after the ellipses. For many of the items brought up, there are times when an author using them fits with the story. I approached one of the members commenting on this thread trying to determine how bad I've been!

No, i think you'll find that anyone who truly cares about what they are doing has realized that. I looked at my most recent story and wondered why it was a well received as it was. And while i try to be mindful, i have to also be true to myself. I cannot tie myself in knots trying to be everything to everyone. We all have our own style and our own way of seeing the worlds we are building and then offering to others to read .. if we stop being who we are, why bother?  Rules are important but not when they stifle or stop people from being creative, because we are afraid of breaking them.

[Valkyrie]

I think it's important to note that when I skip sections of stories or stories themselves, it's not the occasional misplaced comma or typo, or paragraph long description of a house or setting.  It's the stories riddled with typos, misused words, and grammatical errors that I'll skip--especially if the author hasn't shown an inclination to grow.  Not everyone is good at spelling or language use, but that's what we have editors for.  Finding a team that is strong in your weak areas is time-consuming, but worth it.  If you're weak with verb tenses, find someone strong in that area.  If you tend to drone on for pages about technical details, find someone who isn't afraid to call you out on it and help simplify it.  

 

While I admit to skipping stories fairly frequently due to too many editing mistakes, it's very rare I skip a story because it's too descriptive.  I may skim over the technical parts, but I can't think of any story off the top of my head I've stopped reading for being too descriptive.  Descriptions are good... just don't bore the reader with paragraphs when a few sentences will do. 

[Brayon]

1 hour ago, Carlos Hazday said:

Am I the only one who's read through all these comments and realized at some point I've managed to do something which alienates certain readers? My initial reaction is to become defensive: "Yes, I did that, but in this particular instance..." Insert appropriate justification after the ellipses. For many of the items brought up, there are times when an author using them fits with the story. I approached one of the members commenting on this thread trying to determine how bad I've been!

No, you are not the only one. After, I read one comment, I went back to read over my stories to spot if some of the comments were from certain people, because I thought I was the target of that post.

I believe tim said it best:

37 minutes ago, Mikiesboy said:

And while i try to be mindful, i have to also be true to myself. I cannot tie myself in knots trying to be everything to everyone.

Amen, Brother.

38 minutes ago, Mikiesboy said:

Rules are important but not when they stifle or stop people from being creative, because we are afraid of breaking them.

Like you told me last night. "Rules are made to be broken." And that to look for creative ways to express stuff.

[Mikiesboy]

1 minute ago, BHopper2 said:

Like you told me last night. "Rules are made to be broken." And that to look for creative ways to express stuff

You know .. my wonderful editor and i often send each other things... how does this sound to you?  Does this work?  What's another word for???   A, if you want to do that with me...you're welcome anytime. I'm not an editor by any means, but I'm happy for you to run things by me if you want to. Writing is a lonely job, but sometimes we have to help each other. 

[Brayon]

Thank you, tim. I'll take you up on that offer.

[northie]

2 hours ago, Mikiesboy said:

 And while i try to be mindful, i have to also be true to myself. I cannot tie myself in knots trying to be everything to everyone. 

As a writer from what often feels like the wrong side of the pond, I write using British English. This may well put some people off, but I'm not going to stifle my creativity by trying to write in a version of English which is not my own.  When I read American / Canadian English stories, I accept that they're going to look and read a little differently. While I don't want to baffle people with obscure or dialect words, when my characters are speaking, they may well occasionally employ words that aren't in regular use elsewhere. My stories are normally firmly located in England, so I don't apologise for making them speak like English people.

 

21 hours ago, Headstall said:

 

As authors we need to use a little ingenuity. It's the same as seeing every sentence start with 'He' or 'They' or 'This.' It's entirely unnecessary. Sentence structure can be changed.

 

To answer @Carlos Hazday 's question of what have I been guilty of? This ...  I came back a couple of months ago to a multi-part story I'd started about this time last year, ie when I first started writing. Reading the middle chapters in particular, I was horrified by how many sentences started with 'He'. Needless to say, it's having a thorough going-over (revision, re-writing, adding to) before I even consider starting to post it. Looking at it the other way, I was amazed at how much I'd improved ... Phew! 

[Valkyrie]

5 minutes ago, northie said:

As a writer from what often feels like the wrong side of the pond, I write using British English. This may well put some people off, but I'm not going to stifle my creativity by trying to write in a version of English which is not my own.  When I read American / Canadian English stories, I accept that they're going to look and read a little differently. While I don't want to baffle people with obscure or dialect words, when my characters are speaking, they may well occasionally employ words that aren't in regular use elsewhere. My stories are normally firmly located in England, so I don't apologise for making them speak like English people.

 

 

I'm the same way, Northie.  When I read stories by non-US authors, I expect to see different spellings, sayings, words, etc.  I don't find it off-putting in the slightest.  If I'm not sure what a saying or word means, I look it up.  To change the dialect would make the story inauthentic.  One thing I find jarring is when the dialect doesn't match the area.  For example, British equestrian terminology in the Western US.  Or American slang being used by a character who's supposed to be British.  If you are not familiar with the setting of your story, it shows.  I had someone contact me once about "The Hollow Hills" and Vermont. There were aspects I had gotten wrong because I am not from Vermont, nor do I have intimate knowledge of that area.  That person now beta reads the chapters that feature aspects of Vermont I'm not familiar with. I'm still not 100% comfortable with some of the dialect, but I use it to maintain the story's authenticity.  

 

[Carlos Hazday]

17 minutes ago, northie said:

As a writer from what often feels like the wrong side of the pond, I write using British English. This may well put some people off, but I'm not going to stifle my creativity by trying to write in a version of English which is not my own.  When I read American / Canadian English stories, I accept that they're going to look and read a little differently. While I don't want to baffle people with obscure or dialect words, when my characters are speaking, they may well occasionally employ words that aren't in regular use elsewhere. My stories are normally firmly located in England, so I don't apologise for making them speak like English people.

 

To answer @Carlos Hazday 's question of what have I been guilty of? This ...  I came back a couple of months ago to a multi-part story I'd started about this time last year, ie when I first started writing. Reading the middle chapters in particular, I was horrified by how many sentences started with 'He'. Needless to say, it's having a thorough going-over (revision, re-writing, adding to) before I even consider starting to post it. Looking at it the other way, I was amazed at how much I'd improved ... Phew! 

 

Don't apologize for using British English, if it fits the characters it's what you should be using! Our interconnected world means we should become less insular and more global.

 

One of my main characters is an Aussie and I've tried to mold his language use accordingly. I've failed miserably at times. And with a British character, one Brit reader told me I made him sound like a caricature but gave me points for trying. Like @Valkyrie I have a couple of Australians I now use to help me do a better job. However, a couple of Australian authors have shared the fact the younger generations sound more American than Australian at times. We can thank TV, movies, and music for American culture having such a large influence on language. I had a young Aussie call someone an arse and was told the author's 18yo son would never use the word. Because of that American influence I mentioned, the kid was more likely to say ass.