Things you hate to read

[LJCC]

3 hours ago, Krista said:

A PoV swap that's cohesive to the writing and story would be an interesting read. 

 

Diana Gabaldon's second entry to her Outlander series is a good example of that. She switches from 1st Person to 3rd Person PoV. It's done excellently.

[Libby Drew]

3 hours ago, LJCC said:

Diana Gabaldon's second entry to her Outlander series is a good example of that. She switches from 1st Person to 3rd Person PoV. It's done excellently.

James Patterson writes all his Alex Cross novels the same way. Alex's POV is in 1st person. The novel's antagonist's POV is written in 3rd person. 

[Krista]

13 hours ago, LJCC said:

Diana Gabaldon's second entry to her Outlander series is a good example of that. She switches from 1st Person to 3rd Person PoV. It's done excellently.

I've been wanting to get into the Outlander series, the amount of material is a bit daunting, especially if I like it. I know I will have to read through all of it as fast as I can... lol. 

[LJCC]

2 hours ago, Krista said:

I've been wanting to get into the Outlander series, the amount of material is a bit daunting, especially if I like it. I know I will have to read through all of it as fast as I can... lol. 

 

 

Yeah, the first one is around 290k+ words so it's a really long book. The sequels are around 300k-500k. No wonder it takes years before she publishes. It's an erotic reading, but the details of Scottish history are really on-point and I like her style of writing with a bit of sci-fi, romance, and drama tossed in the mix. She’s definitely expanded my vocabulary, and my knowledge of medical procedures, obscure sausage-making processes, colonial history, herbal medicine, corsets, and much more.

Plus, who wouldn't want a redhead Scotsman lathering up your loins for a good read?

I certainly would.
 

 

[Krista]

Funny how this topic changed from things we hate to read to things we'd be interested in reading or interesting things we have read. Lol. Not complaining, just an observation. 

[Headstall]

On 8/6/2023 at 8:58 PM, Krista said:

I've been wanting to get into the Outlander series, the amount of material is a bit daunting, especially if I like it. I know I will have to read through all of it as fast as I can... lol. 

I am a huge fan. I started reading the series by mistake actually. I got the first book from the library for a friend while I was picking up something for myself to read on a trip, but he wasn't interested once he saw it mentioned time travel in the blurb. I brought it along with me, though, and picked it up after finishing my book... and couldn't put it down.   She's a superb story teller.  

[Headstall]

On 8/6/2023 at 11:40 PM, LJCC said:

Yeah, the first one is around 290k+ words so it's a really long book. The sequels are around 300k-500k. No wonder it takes years before she publishes. It's an erotic reading, but the details of Scottish history are really on-point and I like her style of writing with a bit of sci-fi, romance, and drama tossed in the mix. She’s definitely expanded my vocabulary, and my knowledge of medical procedures, obscure sausage-making processes, colonial history, herbal medicine, corsets, and much more.

Plus, who wouldn't want a redhead Scotsman lathering up your loins for a good read?

I certainly would.
 

 

Hell yeah.   

[CassieQ]

14 hours ago, Krista said:

Funny how this topic changed from things we hate to read to things we'd be interested in reading or interesting things we have read. Lol. Not complaining, just an observation. 

It's kinda natural to segue from things we hate to things we like.  I'm here for it

[Krista]

7 hours ago, Headstall said:

I am a huge fan. I started reading the series by mistake actually. I got the first book from the library for a friend while I was picking up something for myself to read on a trip, but he wasn't interested once he saw it mentioned time travel in the blurb. I brought it along with me, though, and picked it up after finishing my book... and couldn't put it down.   She's a superb story teller.  

 

On 8/6/2023 at 11:40 PM, LJCC said:

Yeah, the first one is around 290k+ words so it's a really long book. The sequels are around 300k-500k. No wonder it takes years before she publishes. It's an erotic reading, but the details of Scottish history are really on-point and I like her style of writing with a bit of sci-fi, romance, and drama tossed in the mix. She’s definitely expanded my vocabulary, and my knowledge of medical procedures, obscure sausage-making processes, colonial history, herbal medicine, corsets, and much more.

Plus, who wouldn't want a redhead Scotsman lathering up your loins for a good read?

I certainly would.
 

 

A hot Scotsman... and superb writing. Y'all are making it difficult to not put it in my online shopping cart.  

[Justin4Fun]

On 8/6/2023 at 3:47 AM, Krista said:

A PoV swap that's cohesive to the writing and story would be an interesting read. 

Deborah Harkness accomplished this exceedingly well in her All Souls Trilogy.  While 90% of my 'reading' is audiobooks, I find myself realizing the POV has changed and I don't remember when it happened. I've even rewound the story and get so lost in it that I can't find the change.

That said, I'll put my 2 cents in with my 2 biggest pet peeves.

1: An author that doesn't understand the difference between 'than' and 'then'. They're not even homophones, yet few understand that one is comparative and the other is a time reference.

2: An author that can't keep their own story straight in their mind. Characters changing names as the chapters accumulate is bad, but I tend to notice the smaller things, like someone born in July suddenly having a birthday party in October. Or, as I quietly mentioned to an author I follow, the fact that his character experienced the same minor event four times 'for the first time' over the course of several chapters.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Justin4Fun

[CassieQ]

I have recently discovered that most of my recent reads have been first person POV.

Rebecca, The Housemaid, Dark Age, Iron Gold, Woman in the Window.   I'm probably biased.

[W_L]

Pet peeve:

I don't like queerbaiting in a supposed male romance story. Emily Skrutskie's Bond of Brass was a massive book filled with meandering adventures between two male protagonists with interests for one another, but ultimately, it fell short. I get that she wrote her trilogy as a fanfiction/fiction based on Poe/Finn romance thing from the new Star Wars movies (sort of like Fifty Shades of Grey was a fanfic of Twilight). It just doesn't work for me as a reader for gay/bi male characters to be hinted/winked as some sort of sexual tension. Young Adult genre does not mean there's no active homosexual expression, Darkness Outside Us by Eliot Schrefer was a gay sci-fi story that had gay/bi males, who were repressed, expressed their love, and had sex. 

Basically, don't piss me off with repressive contrivances about why two guys in love can't express it at all throughout the book, I get the need for secrecy and rendezvous (half the plot or 90% is fine based on the context), but keeping 100% as they cannot show their relationship is wrong. The Gay-vague era of writing died in the 1970s.

[Krista]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:44 PM, W_L said:

Pet peeve:

I don't like queerbaiting in a supposed male romance story. Emily Skrutskie's Bond of Brass was a massive book filled with meandering adventures between two male protagonists with interests for one another, but ultimately, it fell short. I get that she wrote her trilogy as a fanfiction/fiction based on Poe/Finn romance thing from the new Star Wars movies (sort of like Fifty Shades of Grey was a fanfic of Twilight). It just doesn't work for me as a reader for gay/bi male characters to be hinted/winked as some sort of sexual tension. Young Adult genre does not mean there's no active homosexual expression, Darkness Outside Us by Eliot Schrefer was a gay sci-fi story that had gay/bi males, who were repressed, expressed their love, and had sex. 

Basically, don't piss me off with repressive contrivances about why two guys in love can't express it at all throughout the book, I get the need for secrecy and rendezvous (half the plot or 90% is fine based on the context), but keeping 100% as they cannot show their relationship is wrong. The Gay-vague era of writing died in the 1970s.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Poe/Finn characters in the Films, also fall into the category on their own? A bit subtle, but I remember reading some articles about their supposed near romantic leaning relationship? Either way, I agree. If you go 90% with two characters, and then change direction, especially if they're main characters, it can be annoying. You have to ask yourself what the entire point of their relationship was at this point. Although, I am okay with there being subtle attraction between two characters, and the twist being that one of them was straight, and the feelings weren't returned and most of what was there, was projected by the writing, but there was ample evidence to suggest it was never going to work regardless. If that is done well, I can read it.. although, it still would be frustrating. It most definitely shouldn't be marketed as Romance either.  

As for Young Adult novels, there are plenty out there with Homosexual relationships, so the market is definitely okay with that sort of content. I feel most of those characters are periphery, in what I've read though. Especially the Mortal Instruments series I read, there's a Lesbian couple, a Bisexual/Gay pairing, an Asexual character, and a Transgender. I am critical of that though, as I felt most of those were a bit bait-y as only two of the characters I listed had their sexuality impact the story on any significant level. The rest were just... there. That can be annoying as well. But I am a reader that doesn't like a lot of information given to me on characters that are hardly there. If they have little to no significance to the plot, and are just scenery, then you should be asking the author why they felt the information was needed. If all they can say about it is: I wanted representation - then you know you've been a bit baited. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Krista

[Thirdly]

What I dislike to read (because to say I "hate" to read anything is a lie, as I always enjoy at least some element of all the stories I've ever read) is a story that had an intense opening and middle, but either a weak ending compared to the intensity of the first two parts....a twist ending just for shock value that does not align well with the intensity of the first two parts...or a selfish ending in which the author deviated from the story itself in order to inject whatever epiphany they currently obtained to try to feed it to the masses by using the first two parts of their story as mere advertisement. 

A webcomic I once read, of all things, managed to fuse all three endings (weak, twist, and selfish) into an ending that riles me up to this very day. I can't even bring myself to recommend the webcomic (nor even mention it by name like 'it who must not be read') because the ending betrays everything that the first two parts of the story established...hell, it made the whole entire thing feel pointless. Why spend so much time building such strong characters and connections if none of them were given satisfying conclusions? Not a single character got what they deserved, good or bad...it was the biggest waste I have ever read because it had the biggest potential that was all cast aside.

[LJCC]

2 hours ago, Thirdly said:

What I dislike to read (because to say I "hate" to read anything is a lie, as I always enjoy at least some element of all the stories I've ever read) is a story that had an intense opening and middle, but either a weak ending compared to the intensity of the first two parts....a twist ending just for shock value that does not align well with the intensity of the first two parts...or a selfish ending in which the author deviated from the story itself in order to inject whatever epiphany they currently obtained to try to feed it to the masses by using the first two parts of their story as mere advertisement. 

A webcomic I once read, of all things, managed to fuse all three endings (weak, twist, and selfish) into an ending that riles me up to this very day. I can't even bring myself to recommend the webcomic (nor even mention it by name like 'it who must not be read') because the ending betrays everything that the first two parts of the story established...hell, it made the whole entire thing feel pointless. Why spend so much time building such strong characters and connections if none of them were given satisfying conclusions? Not a single character got what they deserved, good or bad...it was the biggest waste I have ever read because it had the biggest potential that was all cast aside.

 

 

 

OK FINE!

I'm changing my ending because I had an epiphany I've currently obtained when I was taking a dump.

You didn't have to call me like that.

Kidding aside, I do agree with you. 

*coughs* My sister's keeper by Jodi Picoult *coughs*

Not only was I dissatisfied, but I also felt duped. The author must have thought about the ending with the same energy when boiling tea, "Same, me neither," and chose to murder off the main character so she wouldn't have to deal with it. The novel had built up this very unusual situation, and I found myself thinking, "I have no idea how this is going to end."

I have trust issues since it was so irritating.

 

[LJCC]

20 hours ago, Krista said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Poe/Finn characters in the Films, also fall into the category on their own? A bit subtle, but I remember reading some articles about their supposed near romantic leaning relationship? Either way, I agree. If you go 90% with two characters, and then change direction, especially if they're main characters, it can be annoying. You have to ask yourself what the entire point of their relationship was at this point. Although, I am okay with there being subtle attraction between two characters, and the twist being that one of them was straight, and the feelings weren't returned and most of what was there, was projected by the writing, but there was ample evidence to suggest it was never going to work regardless. If that is done well, I can read it.. although, it still would be frustrating. It most definitely shouldn't be marketed as Romance either.  

As for Young Adult novels, there are plenty out there with Homosexual relationships, so the market is definitely okay with that sort of content. I feel most of those characters are periphery, in what I've read though. Especially the Mortal Instruments series I read, there's a Lesbian couple, a Bisexual/Gay pairing, an Asexual character, and a Transgender. I am critical of that though, as I felt most of those were a bit bait-y as only two of the characters I listed had their sexuality impact the story on any significant level. The rest were just... there. That can be annoying as well. But I am a reader that doesn't like a lot of information given to me on characters that are hardly there. If they have little to no significance to the plot, and are just scenery, then you should be asking the author why they felt the information was needed. If all they can say about it is: I wanted representation - then you know you've been a bit baited. 

 

I wish they would write about a gay or lesbian couple who's paying their mortgage, or a couple arguing about why one of them didn't go to Jan and Jude's baby shower (because one of them thinks their neighbour's a kyoont.)

Those are the gay couples I'd love to read about.

But then again, you are talking about YA novels. 

Hey, at least we teach them young people about how it is to be in a committed gay relationship while they're young, which is not different from any couple out there, really.

[Krista]

1 hour ago, LJCC said:

I wish they would write about a gay or lesbian couple who's paying their mortgage, or a couple arguing about why one of them didn't go to Jan and Jude's baby shower (because one of them thinks their neighbour's a kyoont.)

Those are the gay couples I'd love to read about.

But then again, you are talking about YA novels. 

Hey, at least we teach them young people about how it is to be in a committed gay relationship while they're young, which is not different from any couple out there, really.

I'll get right on that.  it may just take me 10 years. lol 

[Krista]

Another not-so-recent trope that has started popping back up in movies/books/shows that I am increasingly more and more annoyed with is: The overshadowed love triangle.

What I mean by that - there's one character who is sweet, has the moral compass set to good, etc. Falling in love with the central character. All the while, the third in the triangle is a selfish, self-centered, brooding jerk. Which, mind you, does happen in most love triangles, but the ones I'm specifically talking about is when the Central character is more aligned with the character with the more forgiving personality traits, and morals. Which, would end up in a more healthy relationship when both are committed to one another, because they just desire to be.

What happens though, is the central character will always choose the jerk, the jerk will always overshadow the more morally aligned character. The writers will make the morally aligned character go from swoon-worthy to completely boring, or self-deprecating. That will inevitably hurt the central character far worse than the jerk ever will, even though, it is completely out of character. It will be a switch, instant and unforgiving. That character will become insufferable. The brooding, selfish jerk, will also soften during this time, show a secret and very well hidden soft side, but keep having issues - they may cheat, lie, and sabotage because they're broody and "not good... but I'll try for you," for the central character.

-- Like I said, it happens in most love triangles. Moral Good - Central Character - Moral Bad. What I am seeing more and more of, which I cannot stand aside from the personality shifts, is when the Central character disregards their own personal beliefs to align more with the Morally bad character, despite their better and sound judgments. Example: They condemn the morally unaligned character for cheating on a different person, and then disregard that for the hell of it. They may condemn them for drug use, but then either start using the drugs themselves, or allow that sort of thing to go completely overlooked. I don't like seeing that time and again, at the end of it, all three of them have no backbone and strength of character.

I would like to see a Triangle where the Nice character keeps that sexy swoon factor that draws the reader in. I would like the central character to keep hold of their standards and respect for themselves and desire someone worthy of their time. And the writing needs to hold the Jerk completely accountable for past actions, and only reward the jerk if the jerk shows true character and realistic character growth. All the evidence and foundation of character growth doesn't need to fly out the window. It shouldn't be a switch, I feel it is just lazy writing that takes away any complexity with all the characters involved. The Jerk can still win out in the end, something that is also shifting is that the nice character does win out some as well. But still, when they go from swoon-worthy, to self-deprecating, to just the... "better option.." because the other one is still toxic or they've done something the Central character just 'can't' overlook. Mostly because the blinders came off for a moment or two, and the writer doesn't want to depict that as the winner. It is still problematic to me. 

--Although one can also argue that Triangles are a bit played out regardless.  I'm saying this as I have a love Triangle story planned... but will likely never get to, because I'm slow at writing. But I will most definitely not be going down this road with it. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Krista

[W_L]

@Krista

You could just let your characters have an open poly relationship to prevent triangles   (I'm doing it for my current story as I am trying t incorporate isekai elements, the subgenre of fantasy is well known for being polyamorous.)

------

I've noticed in recent gay and mm fiction stories is the nice grandma character, who always seems to pop up and help the gay characters get to their happily ever after. I understand that "Golden Girls" was an amazing late 80s and 90s show written by gay writers with coded stories that can tie into our community, but it's becoming a little repetitive to see the same kind of elderly grandmother character saving the day by scheming with one boy to resolve an issue, fix a situation, or become their OnlyFans patron instead of openly supporting them. 

It's not representative so many elderly women would be LGBT advocates or knowledgeable about gay boys' needs. 

[CassieQ]

15 hours ago, W_L said:

@Krista

You could just let your characters have an open poly relationship to prevent triangles   (I'm doing it for my current story as I am trying t incorporate isekai elements, the subgenre of fantasy is well known for being polyamorous.)

 

Most of the love triangles I've read I've just been....well, if you would all learn to share, this wouldn't be a problem.  LOL.  

[Krista]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:06 AM, W_L said:

@Krista

You could just let your characters have an open poly relationship to prevent triangles   (I'm doing it for my current story as I am trying t incorporate isekai elements, the subgenre of fantasy is well known for being polyamorous.)

------

I've noticed in recent gay and mm fiction stories is the nice grandma character, who always seems to pop up and help the gay characters get to their happily ever after. I understand that "Golden Girls" was an amazing late 80s and 90s show written by gay writers with coded stories that can tie into our community, but it's becoming a little repetitive to see the same kind of elderly grandmother character saving the day by scheming with one boy to resolve an issue, fix a situation, or become their OnlyFans patron instead of openly supporting them. 

It's not representative so many elderly women would be LGBT advocates or knowledgeable about gay boys' needs. 

As far as Grandmothers being sweet, knowing and, and open to help out the MC, I feel with the transitioning of generations to being more open than the earlier ones, is maybe the cause for this. I've not read a lot where Grandparents are the accepting ones though, or elderly authority figures in general. Although, from my perspective the older character that has lived a full life and no longer gives an eff about anything, including sexualities, is a bit of a new concept. Maybe if they weren't so wholesome about it? Although, the onlyfans would be VERY DNF for me.. grammies don't need to be doing that. lol.

I've been a bit hard on Mothers lately with two of my stories and I'm not really liking that, but that's how I started the stories, so I have to be consistent and finish them out that way - or have them have an epiphany. I won't do it if the writing doesn't support such a thing. I don't want to be Disney where the Mother characters are either evil or dead.. lol.

I've become more picky in my days though, because I have DNF'd 100% of the television shows and books I've started this year - other than Prisma, but if they screw up the second season, then yeah. But I've made an honest attempt with... five books, and just stopped looking for new things to read. I will have to honestly settle into the Outlander series, which I have neglected to buy still, because I just don't want to immerse myself into that big of a series when I have other things to do. I am the person that 'has' to finish something if I'm enjoying the read. I will read for hours and this time of year I don't have that luxury. 

[Krista]

On 12/9/2023 at 5:39 PM, CassieQ said:

Most of the love triangles I've read I've just been....well, if you would all learn to share, this wouldn't be a problem.  LOL.  

Now now, that would force the author to come up with a more worthwhile plot, honestly.  It is annoying to read 3 characters that are so hung up on one another they can't function... it really is. lol. Breaking that trend would be a welcome change. 

[ReaderPaul]

35 minutes ago, Krista said:

As far as Grandmothers being sweet, knowing and, and open to help out the MC, I feel with the transitioning of generations to being more open than the earlier ones, is maybe the cause for this. I've not read a lot where Grandparents are the accepting ones though, or elderly authority figures in general. Although, from my perspective the older character that has lived a full life and no longer gives an eff about anything, including sexualities, is a bit of a new concept....

I have read one author who has sometimes written about caring grandfathers, and a couple of time of caring grandmothers.  (Unfortunately, I have been unable to persuade him to come to GA.)  I agree, @Krista, such characterizations should be part of the story.

[Krista]

I have a new one, that's not really new... but I've been running into it a lot lately.

Romeo and Juliet mirrors. 

[W_L]

13 hours ago, Krista said:

I have a new one, that's not really new... but I've been running into it a lot lately.

Romeo and Juliet mirrors. 

"O Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo? Deny thy father and refuse thy name; or if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love and I'll no longer be a Capulet."  

A lot of folks love tragedies and teenage angst, so the story has become the template for an entire genre of teen romance. Heck, the CW/WB/FOX have cashed in on this old formula for decades. I don't mind them, but if you are going to do a Romeo and Juliet parallel, just make sure you don't sugarcoat the story. Shakespeare was right to kill them both in the end, because it was needed to capture the essence of the story and needless death over petty things. (I am not a fan of the Broadway reinterpretation version called "& Juliet", I get what the producers were after with giving women a voice and exploring gender themes, but the original story became timeless for the needless deaths over star-crossed lovers. You lose a lot of thematic and plot motivation when you try to re-interpret a tragedy into an exploration of modern themes. In terms of Broadway plays, I prefer "Six" when it comes to explorations of gender roles and women's voices from the past, since the theme and story worked as a perspective shift than a reinterpretation.)