What is up with said?

[CassieQ]

Please please please, weigh in here because I feel like I am going crazy.

Did something change with the use of the word 'said'?  I was always taught that 'said' was like 'and' or 'the', a word that doesn't jump out at the reader unless it is missing.  I have let a few people look over the first chapter of a story I am working on and at least 2 of them have been pointing out the overuse of the word 'said".  

For context, this is a 4700 word chapter, the word said is used 21 times, with other dialogue tags (mostly asked) used 18 times.  

An example:

Spoiler

         “And people don’t go there?” Malik asked skeptically.

         “Well, the locals don’t, as far I can tell,” Salma said.  “I mean, there are trespassers, squatters and other dumb teenagers, but it looks like the police don’t care enough about it to bother unless things get really bad.”

         “Define really bad,” Hawk said with a grin.

         Salma gave him a tight grin of her own.  “Bad enough where we have to be careful.”  She hesitated.  “I brought my dad’s gun.”

         “Jesus, Sal!” Hawk growled.  

         “Relax,” Salma said.  “It’s not loaded, but I did bring the bullets with me.”

         “If I get pulled over—”

         “With as slow as you drive?”

         Malik laughed.  “Relax Hawk.  She’s not going to shoot anyone.  With her aim, the only thing in danger is going to be the ceiling.”  He could see her glowering at him in the rearview mirror.

In this example, during the statement when Salma was telling everyone to relax, I should have used implored instead to avoid the overuse of said.

I was also taught not to overuse other dialogue tags when said will work just fine.

I feel like I am going crazy cakes, did something change?

(I have also decided I'm not letting anyone besides my beta and editors touch my work anymore).

[Cia]

It's stylistic, not a rule. However, and this is a gross generalization and I'm not pointing at any one author, most "online" authors tend to use a lot more speech tags overall and use synonyms for said (implored, snapped, quipped, etc...) than more traditional published or even eBook published authors. Published authors are subject to house styles which are often more rigid about speech tags. It's considered more effective to use the narration to indicate the mood and tenor of the speech rather than a speech tag. Save the creativity for the verbs. 

[Myr]

What Cia said. 🤔

I'll add that the use of all those other words, which I've been guilty of heavily in the past, are almost all "Tell" words instead of show.  They can be used to move a scene along but should not be used to the level we typically see online (and again, guilty here).  So if you are getting advice of "Show, don't tell!", watch out for all those words you use to replace "said". 

I will blame an early teacher in my high school English that hated "said".  So that was part of my drive. I'm sure I'm not the only student so affected.

Professional writing and writing books giving guidance is fully on board with you Cassie.  Said is an invisible background word for most folks.

You need some indicator of the person talking when it is not fully clear from the context.  When you use that indicator, the easy trap to fall into, and most of my stories are loaded with them, is finding new and creative words to not say "said".  @Ciaclobbers me on that during editing. 

[Daddydavek]

@Ciaand @Myr  Well said!

[Mikiesboy]

1 hour ago, CassieQ said:

Please please please, weigh in here because I feel like I am going crazy.

Did something change with the use of the word 'said'?  I was always taught that 'said' was like 'and' or 'the', a word that doesn't jump out at the reader unless it is missing.  I have let a few people look over the first chapter of a story I am working on and at least 2 of them have been pointing out the overuse of the word 'said".  

For context, this is a 4700 word chapter, the word said is used 21 times, with other dialogue tags (mostly asked) used 18 times.  

An example:

  Reveal hidden contents

         “And people don’t go there?” Malik asked skeptically.

         “Well, the locals don’t, as far I can tell,” Salma said.  “I mean, there are trespassers, squatters and other dumb teenagers, but it looks like the police don’t care enough about it to bother unless things get really bad.”

         “Define really bad,” Hawk said with a grin.

         Salma gave him a tight grin of her own.  “Bad enough where we have to be careful.”  She hesitated.  “I brought my dad’s gun.”

         “Jesus, Sal!” Hawk growled.  

         “Relax,” Salma said.  “It’s not loaded, but I did bring the bullets with me.”

         “If I get pulled over—”

         “With as slow as you drive?”

         Malik laughed.  “Relax Hawk.  She’s not going to shoot anyone.  With her aim, the only thing in danger is going to be the ceiling.”  He could see her glowering at him in the rearview mirror.

In this example, during the statement when Salma was telling everyone to relax, I should have used implored instead to avoid the overuse of said.

I was also taught not to overuse other dialogue tags when said will work just fine.

I feel like I am going crazy cakes, did something change?

(I have also decided I'm not letting anyone besides my beta and editors touch my work anymore).

Not a huge fan of speech tags for myself but there are times they are needed. You don't want readers having to reread to sort out who in the group of characters is speaking.

I was told said is a good option, kind of mild and passive ... more like a stage direction.

You're a good writer Cassie, use it as you see fit.

 

 

[Myr]

1 minute ago, Mikiesboy said:

Not a huge fan of speech tags for myself but there are times they are needed. You don't want readers having to reread to sort out who in the group of characters is speaking.

I was told said is a good option, kind of mild and passive ... more like a stage direction.

You're a good writer Cassie, use it as you see fit.

well said!

so much of this is what works for you and your audience too. I know @dkstories lack of commas drives @Cia right around the pike a couple of times, but I get so engrossed in the tale I don't notice. Most people don't notice, or don't comment on it unless it's pointed out.  But just one chapter put into Grammarly yields hundreds of comma errors. Ms Oxford Comma herself can't let that one pass. lol.

I think it is like building a writer's talent stack.  The more you do well, the better off you will do across the board with the understanding that some people have something that just doesn't work for them.  Some people are fixated on "Said". Some people are fixated on "show don't tell".  Some people hate exposition. Some people love it.  (I'm a world builder... exposition and telling is a heavy thing in Sci-fi and Fantasy until you get really good with your writing talent stack).  When you get far enough along, you know what works for your audience and what doesn't.  @CassieQ, I think you qualify as far enough along

 

[CassieQ]

43 minutes ago, Mikiesboy said:

Not a huge fan of speech tags for myself but there are times they are needed. You don't want readers having to reread to sort out who in the group of characters is speaking.

I had to do that recently with a book I was reading, and I still couldn't figure it out.  

[ReaderPaul]

Years ago, author Dean Koontz was being interviewed by Tom Snyder on the (now long defunct) Tomorrow Show.  Koontz told of a run-in with a female editor about overuse of "said" and underuse of tags to indicate who was speaking.  In the example he gave, he had a page of dialogue between a man and woman (and only the two of them) where it was obvious who was speaking.  Therefore, he was not even using "said" after each short statement.  She went into his dialogue and added non-"said" replacements, such as -- questioned, stated, affirmed, grouched, grumped, hissed, exclaimed, pouted, and so on -- until the final statement , which was "[statement]," SHE ejaculated!   Koontz felt the replacement of "said" with "ejaculated" was a bit extreme, for a female character.

On a personal note, I don't like to see "said" used six or more times in a row.  It implies, to me, that the conversation is probably dull or boring, or has been edited by a newspaper editor with a tight restriction of page space.

Edited September 6, 2021 by ReaderPaul

[JamesSavik]

Wut he said.

[CassieQ]

Thanks everyone.  I feel a little bit less frazzled now.  

[Cia]

I'm flexible on many things... but no @Myr comma rules tend to be "rules" to me.  That does drive me crazy. You'd be surprised at what sneaks through published work, though. I have to bite my tongue every year we teach a book in 5th grade because the snakes in the story are described as poisonous twice. Some things when authors write should be 'right' and some things are just a style choice. It can be confusing to know which is which. I always appreciate feedback, especially if I solicit it, but if I don't agree with a beta or editor's advice I will ask them to back up exactly why they believe their edit or choice is correct. If it's not a hard and fast rule, I'll go with 1) consistent use as changing/non-consistent use in a writing style does stick out to readers and 2) my personal preference. After all, my name is on the story as the author. 

I think you've gotten quite a bit of feedback so far letting you know you're on the right track @CassieQ but it's good to have these conversations about style vs. rule from time to time. 

[ReaderPaul]

32 minutes ago, Cia said:

I'm flexible on many things... but no @Myr comma rules tend to be "rules" to me.  That does drive me crazy. You'd be surprised at what sneaks through published work, though. I have to bite my tongue every year we teach a book in 5th grade because the snakes in the story are described as poisonous twice. Some things when authors write should be 'right' and some things are just a style choice. It can be confusing to know which is which. I always appreciate feedback, especially if I solicit it, but if I don't agree with a beta or editor's advice I will ask them to back up exactly why they believe their edit or choice is correct. If it's not a hard and fast rule, I'll go with 1) consistent use as changing/non-consistent use in a writing style does stick out to readers and 2) my personal preference. After all, my name is on the story as the author. 

I think you've gotten quite a bit of feedback so far letting you know you're on the right track @CassieQ but it's good to have these conversations about style vs. rule from time to time. 

@Cia, preach on about the Oxford Comma.  In writing, I have seen everything from no commas, to the Oxford comma, to too few commas, to the, Shatner, comma, and the misuse of semicolons 

@Myr, I like your writing subjects and general style, but I have to side with @Cia on the commas.

Thanks, @CassieQ, for bringing up the whole rage of topics covered in this set of posts.

Edited September 6, 2021 by ReaderPaul

[Myr]

@ReaderPaul, I'm not saying @Ciaisn't perfectly correct on it... I'm not that crazy. 🤪

If you place a shiny story nugget in front of me, I'll probably not notice anything else or be very forgiving of it.  If the story doesn't quite have it for me, my mind wanders and I might start counting "Saids" or missing commas or anything else the author's slight of hand was supposed to be distracting me from.  But that's me.  It's why I am really horrible at editing.  Even if I am specifically looking for something, I'll get distracted by the plot and go back to reading...

The challenge for the writer is finding the balance of their skill level and desired reach.  We only get better by writing more and learning as we go. Only one of us gets to be J.K. Rowling after all.  Or Michael Creighton.  Or Dean Koontz...

So said... use as directed and do not exceed dosage in 24 hour period. refer to chart for correct dosage:

[Krista]

Writing habits are a difficult thing to break, so I try not to fret when people bring up stylistic sort of approaches. Dialog tags are stylistic choices. I was told once not to use other tags where said works (so we were in the same class, I guess). It only really becomes an issue when it becomes a distraction, but the function of said is not to become one. I once thought that said was boring. The use of it made the scenes boring so I pretty much wrote a new dialog tag and worried if I repeated the same ones. Now I typically use said as the go to and focus more on how the characters word their dialog, react to what is going on, and what is happening around them. You can do both, but sometimes dialog tags that aren't just the run of the mill said or asked, does become combative with the rest of the sentence or following sentence. 

I don't have a correct writing style. I suck at commas of all kinds, and you won't find a semi-colon anywhere. I felt completely sorry for @Valkyrie who edited my anthology story. She added a ton of commas and a few semis and I knew that had to be tedious work. 

I also use dialog the same way, pretty much throughout the entire work. I hardly ever break from the pattern that I establish. Does it create a style.. certainly.  It is distinctly different than how I see dialog handled in published works.

---

Spoiler

“Oh hey, Jackson,” Emma said as she nearly hit me with the door. I hadn’t moved from the small concrete stairs that split with a handicap ramp.

“Hey,” I said, stepping out of her way. “No cheerleading practice for y’all?”

“We used the pep rally for a quick practice,” she answered, offering me a smile. “Are you coming to the game?”

“No, I have practice,” I answered and she nodded her head.

“You’re practically married to your swimming aren’t you?” She asked and I watched her tuck a stray lock of blond hair behind her ear

. 
 

---

Spoiler

  Salma gave him a tight grin of her own.  “Bad enough where we have to be careful.”  She hesitated.  “I brought my dad’s gun.”

         “Jesus, Sal!” Hawk growled.  

         “Relax,” Salma said.  “It’s not loaded, but I did bring the bullets with me.”

         “If I get pulled over—”

         “With as slow as you drive?”

---

Sections of dialog like this, I just don't use. It is always dialog followed by the dialog tag, then something to close the action or thought. I hardly ever use dialog that doesn't indicate the speaker. Like I said, I see the above style used in published works, so I know if that is the preferred style or just a 'better,' one then I would need a lot of self guidance and habit breaking for me to write dialog the more preferred way. 

I'm a little late, but there seems to be a consensus on what is up with Said. So at least that's nice. lol Not as controversial as we thought really, poor said. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Krista

[BigBen]

As mentioned by others, the goal is effective communication with the reader.  Words other than "said" quickly become annoying, hence the advice to avoid them.  "Said" and "asked" are usually the words we want to be using.  And possibly "exclaimed," when necessary.

It is not usually necessary to indicate the speaker of every line of dialogue, but if a reader has to go back to try to figure out who said what, we are not communicating successfully, and the passage needs to be re-worked.

Sometimes a word other than the generic word may be appreciated by the reader.  I myself am partial to "'Shut up,' he explained" (does anyone remember who wrote it?), though others might disdain it.  It is hard to be that clever all the time, however, which is why it's almost always better to stick with "said."

One verbal tic I notice on this site and others is the over-frequent use of characters' names in dialogue.  Real people rarely address one another by name in casual conversation, but for some reason, we tend to have our characters do just that.  I notice this tendency in myself when attempting to commit dialogue, and I find I have to be ruthless about going back and cutting out most or all of the names.

One last thought, stimulated by the mention of "ejaculation":  the sexual use of the word has come to predominate in casual speech, but it is, or was, a perfectly normal word for describing the utterance of an oath, swear word, or other outburst.  Conan Doyle has Watson ejaculate a number of times in the Holmes canon, and not in the sexual sense.  It's like the word "intercourse,” in that the sexual meaning is by no means the only sense in which the word can be used.  It would be a pity to allow such words to become so tainted by their sexual application that they become impossible to use in any other sense.  Most of us are no longer third-graders, after all.  On the other hand, employing such words in place of the lowly "said" gives prose a distinctly nineteenth-century feel that may be undesirable.

[Branflakes]

A bit late to the party—but I'll weigh in anyway. 😚

Growing up, and in school, said was always considered over-used and boring. Teachers would also then tell us to steer away from making the mistake of trying to replace said with something that usually was out of place or disrupted the flow of a dialogue. I remember being told by my grade 11 English teacher, 'If your reader has to go find a dictionary to look up the meaning of what you're trying to convey then it's a not going to be useful to you."

On the contrary, a peer of mine in college that often paired off with me to editing of each other's stories and such once said this to me and it made me think.  "You often just say things like said, said, said. Are they just monotone when they speak? Breathe some life into the conversation! Don't let your characters become flat."

So my advice is to do whatever you feel is most comfortable. Using said can be a great way to get through dialogue quickly when there is no need to be flowery. But every now and then surprise them! Give them some salt and pepper and throw a flowery word in there. I feel as if when I do dialogue if I first use said and then read it later and try to pick up on the nuanced emotions that I want to convey, but it feels lackluster, you gotta break out that bouquet and give those scenes some TLC. Even if you don't replace the word said, throw in a spicy adjective. "She spoke to him tenderly, he said with exasperation."

Bottom line: you do you! Make it your own. 💗

Edit: cute little faces heehee

Edited November 1, 2021 by Branflakes