lets work together Topic Tuesday #5: Beware Advice

[Brayon]

Last week, I entered into a discussion about my work here on GA, with some fellow writers. Willingly, of course, and described to them my serial story The Half-Elven Warlock. I included what is already publicly known and published on this site, and my outline and worldbuilding documents. All my behind the scene secrets that not even my editing team knows, and other details about my world The Fairie. This discussion was frank, and I knew they would intentionally pick it apart to tell me, where I might be lacking.

 

By the time it was over, I was depressed, angry, boarderline in tears, and sorely tempted to go through GA and remove every trace of my existance online.

 

Beware of Advice, Insight from others, and Feedback from different sources. That's my topic this week.

 

Have you ever recieved advice, feedback, or insight, that made you want to rage quit?

[Mikiesboy]

No, nothing like what you went through. I think you need to be very careful ... because the worlds you build are yours, not theirs and it's very normal for people to want to change things to their own way of thinking and seeing things. Pick and choose who you include in things, and you do not have to share everything.

 

My editor is very good that way, he will tell me if something doesn't work or feel right, but he's not tearing me or the work apart when he does.

[Parker Owens]

Like @Mikiesboy, I haven’t experienced what you went through. I have gotten some good reality checks and feedback from editors and beta readers, but never anything to make my heart sore. I think tim is right - more than once, he’s steeled me to keep what I have written, even though others might have found it disagreeable. 

[FormerMember4]

Sorry you felt attacked. I like honesty and constructive criticism. The only time I felt extremely ripped apart was writing my thesis in college. Months of preparing and writing. My advisor tore apart first draft. It was devastating to me.

As a writer, you must be open to criticism. That’s how you learn and expand. It shouldn’t be sugarcoated, but should be respectful advice being offered.

As a writer asking for advice, be prepared to hear negative feedback. Writing takes a thick skin. This is hard for anyone. Especially if you are sensitive and internalize feedback.

[Daddydavek]

Since I am my own worst critic, any criticism I've received pales in comparison to what I give myself.  I'm sorry that you experienced that level of disappointment.  My only suggestion is to make it a learning experience.  There are people who offer good advice but can be rather undiplomatic .  I may have been guilty of being a bit harsh in comments on occasion.  I can remember a comment I made on a story by  @Jwolf and being called to task by another member who I have great respect for and since then I try to temper my comments and consider how they sound...

 

Since then I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and hope that same courtesy is extended to me.

[Timothy M.]

14 minutes ago, Daddydavek said:

Since I am my own worst critic, any criticism I've received pales in comparison to what I give myself. 

 

I can relate to that.   I have been too harsh in the way I have written critical comments in the past, but I've tried to become better at wording my objections to story details. I'm generally useless at picking apart story lines, characters or scenes, which is why I don't beta. I've never been truly upset the way you have, but I imagine it's quite unpleasant.  

[Cia]

Carrot and stick. I always try to offer something I like that an author does along with my critique of what I think they need to improve or change. That being said, criticism of a published piece versus a concept is always very different. It's a concept, an idea, a path you haven't quite followed. Getting feedback is actually a great idea during that process because it can take your story places it might not have gone (great places, dark place, scary places, heavenly places), but doing it with a large group outside of your beta/editing team probably isn't the best way to go about it. I've found we surround ourselves closely with those who either help us by seeing the same vision we do and "getting it" or by giving us the greatest help by knowing how to tear what we've done apart. It's great when a person can do both. 

 

To answer the question, though, about ever being pushed to rage quit? No. Stories are our visions, but they're also just words put together on a page. And words can always be improved. I never believe my work is the best, I always know there will be those who don't like some of it--or all of it--and I take feedback in the respect it was given. If it's in hopes of helping me improve, I examine their ideas and tips and decide if it works for me or not (or is correct, if it's editing advice) and then go from there. There's no reason to take it personally. Unless someone outright says, "You're an awful author, and this story is the epitome of shit!" then I'm not going to take offense. And even then I'm just going to ignore them because their opinion (and therefore my opinion of them) is worthless. 

[CassieQ]

I will take any criticism/advice/whatever IF it is constructive.  I've only gotten frustrated twice with my beta reader, and that is when he tore into two of my stories because he didn't like them.  I read through scores of comments about why he hated this and this and this and this, but NONE of it was helpful.  No "this doesn't work, so maybe try this" or "I would change this for reasons X Y and Z" or "this doesn't work for this character".  

 

I knew full well going into it that he wasn't going to like what I wrote and that is fine, but reading through a bunch of comments that didn't really give any useful advice at all was a frustrating waste of time.  

 

So I guess it depends on the feedback.  Give me some constructive advice and I'll follow it.  Give me a bunch of baseless hate and I'll blow it off. 

[comicfan]

A lot depends on when and who is giving the advice or criticism. I listen and work closely with anyone who I am using as a beta reader. I've been lucky to work with some great people who look for ways to help me improve my writing, asking me to expand ideas, give more detail, or clarify something I have written. Those people I will always thank with  all of my heart.

 

Unfortunately, I've also worked with people who've tried to have me alter my characters or completely change my story, not because there was a problem, but because it wasn't what they wanted or how they would have written the story. News flash, it isn't their story, it's mine. Those people I've had to back away from. They have, a few times, successfully killed a project I was working on. The comments passed ended up tainting all the work I'd done and now I couldn't look at my own work the same way.

 

Now there is a huge difference between "You really should use scullery maid instead of servant because it fits the time period" and "this doesn't work and you should start over." The more detailed and reasoned response will always get a response from me. Like when someone leaves a review. Those that say, this is wonderful or this sucks, doesn't mean much to me, because they don't point out anything I can focus on to continue or fix in my writing. However, when someone says the story touched them and all the details reminded them of their own life because of x, y, or z I am ecstatic. It also helps when someone says my story sucks because I accidently changed a character's name, or the fact the main character traveled hundreds of miles in seconds with no reasonable explanation. These are things I can fix. I might feel stupid that the beta reader, editor, and myself missed this, but I am made aware of the issues and can fix them and try not to repeat them in the future.

 

The one thing I have learned is not to allow someone the ability to steal away something I enjoy doing. I will not be a victim to someone else's small minded attacks.

 

Anyway, just my comments on the topic. 

[Mikiesboy]

8 hours ago, comicfan said:

Unfortunately, I've also worked with people who've tried to have me alter my characters or completely change my story, not because there was a problem, but because it wasn't what they wanted or how they would have written the story. News flash, it isn't their story, it's mine. Those people I've had to back away from. They have, a few times, successfully killed a project I was working on. The comments passed ended up tainting all the work I'd done and now I couldn't look at my own work the same way.

Wow ... that is horrible!  When i read or edit content for people...i'll give my best feedback/suggestions... but i always make sure that the author knows.. it is a suggestion...i'm not offended or upset if you choose not to use it. It is their voice, their story. i am there to help, offer some ideas and insight..  I'm sorry that happened, wow.

[Caz Pedroso]

On 4/7/2018 at 10:06 PM, Cia said:

To answer the question, though, about ever being pushed to rage quit? No. Stories are our visions, but they're also just words put together on a page. And words can always be improved. I never believe my work is the best, I always know there will be those who don't like some of it--or all of it--and I take feedback in the respect it was given. If it's in hopes of helping me improve, I examine their ideas and tips and decide if it works for me or not (or is correct, if it's editing advice) and then go from there. There's no reason to take it personally. Unless someone outright says, "You're an awful author, and this story is the epitome of shit!" then I'm not going to take offense. And even then I'm just going to ignore them because their opinion (and therefore my opinion of them) is worthless. 

 

I have to agree with Cia that no one, no matter how critical, has been able to stop me writing.

 

I've had some great critical reviews that have lead to me rewriting one story and adding in the suggested changes. I contacted one reviewer and she was happy to point out where she thought i had gone wrong, and i took her suggestions on board. 

 

I have also had a few bad reviews (mostly off site) and one, in particular, was just two words in capital letters. I read it rolled my eyes and moved on. I'm not saying bad reviews don't hurt, but unless they elaborate, then all they are doing is wasting their time typing the review, and i refuse to waste more of my time that it takes to read and dismiss their words. 

[Pmsingtiger]

I tend to not put myself out there because of that... it's hard sometimes. I know I struggle hugely with grammar and spelling and typos and tenses and well, basically putting words out in any type of written form. I've had some hard criticisms in that more times than I can count. I write as a way to express myself, and I like the criticism that will help me get better at writing, but when I see something that sounds more like bashing I tend to shrug it off so it won't upset me. 

 

Sorry people were mean to you -- avoid squirrels they are also mean. 

[Brayon]

I'll admit. Since this has happened, I can't even look at that project without getting seriously pissed off.

[Pmsingtiger]

4 hours ago, BHopper2 said:

I'll admit. Since this has happened, I can't even look at that project without getting seriously pissed off.

You should have someone critique it that isn’t a grumpy grammar Gremlin. That will show you that not all people are out to tear your story apart. ☺️

[Laura S. Fox]

On 6/3/2018 at 10:01 AM, BHopper2 said:

I'll admit. Since this has happened, I can't even look at that project without getting seriously pissed off.

I'm so sorry to hear that you went through such a thing. The only advice I can give is to avoid those people. I know that it's a common thing to believe that you should expose yourself to criticism, so you can get better and all that.

 

But what you say about what happened to you makes me think that those people were not critics. They were simply toxic people. And toxic people should be avoided like the plague. They are those whose only role in life seems to be to drag other people down. I'm just speculating here, but I think that these people have never written or created something in their lives. Or, if they did, they faced so harsh criticism, or they couldn't move anyone with their writing or creation, that they became bitter, and now they only spill that bitterness over people who are too kind and let them.

 

Yes, there is such a thing as constructive criticism. But that kind of criticism will never make you feel like you do right now. Constructive criticism is eye opening, it can clarify muddy points, and it is useful. Toxic behavior is the total opposite.

 

I just want to say one more thing. Please, don't look at your own work with harsh eyes. Take a small break for it, and then get back to it. You will once again see the beauty of it as you saw it the first time you made it. It's your baby, and it's beautiful. Don't give up on it because of what some people might say.

 

And here's a hug

 

[MrM]

First off:

 

Secondly, I've found that true constructive criticism (hence constructive) seeks to build you up and give you ideas that can gently help you 'kill your darlings' if they aren't working, but better, give you the strength to rebuild them toward a better image of what you are after. An experienced writer/editor willing to mentor can recognize this and do this for one just starting out.  

 

Any 'criticism' that tears down and destroys is not constructive, of course, and I'd dare say it's mean-spirited and meant to destroy. What motive such people might have are legion, but I chalk it up to people who are either jealous or, simply, have yet to attain the experience necessary to effectively criticize another's work. 

 

To be an effective critic and not a complete hack is a skill unto itself. I try not to criticize others work and only give praise to the areas of a story that I particularly like. If asked to critique something I feel it is my duty to be as fair and just with the piece. I try to do this as I am able while giving the proviso to the author that I'm not a good critic due to lack of critical experience, to hang with me, and to help me help them.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by MrM

[quokka]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:03 PM, BHopper2 said:

Last week, I entered into a discussion about my work here on GA, with some fellow writers. Willingly, of course, and described to them my serial story The Half-Elven Warlock. I included what is already publicly known and published on this site, and my outline and worldbuilding documents. All my behind the scene secrets that not even my editing team knows, and other details about my world The Fairie. This discussion was frank, and I knew they would intentionally pick it apart to tell me, where I might be lacking.

 

By the time it was over, I was depressed, angry, boarderline in tears, and sorely tempted to go through GA and remove every trace of my existance online.

 

Beware of Advice, Insight from others, and Feedback from different sources. That's my topic this week.

 

Have you ever recieved advice, feedback, or insight, that made you want to rage quit?

Yes, a couple of times

[CassieQ]

On 4/3/2018 at 1:03 AM, BHopper2 said:

Last week, I entered into a discussion about my work here on GA, with some fellow writers. Willingly, of course, and described to them my serial story The Half-Elven Warlock. I included what is already publicly known and published on this site, and my outline and worldbuilding documents. All my behind the scene secrets that not even my editing team knows, and other details about my world The Fairie. This discussion was frank, and I knew they would intentionally pick it apart to tell me, where I might be lacking.

 

By the time it was over, I was depressed, angry, boarderline in tears, and sorely tempted to go through GA and remove every trace of my existance online.

 

Beware of Advice, Insight from others, and Feedback from different sources. That's my topic this week.

 

Have you ever recieved advice, feedback, or insight, that made you want to rage quit?

To be perfectly honest, it sounds like maybe this wasn't the right group of people to give you feedback, based on your reaction.  My beta reader can be blunt to the point of sounding harsh and it has caused hurt feelings from time to time, but deep down, I know that he is right most of the time, and will try to fix issues that he points out.  Some people can take that kind of criticism and some people can't.  It took me a while to be okay with it.  My editors tend to be much more gentle and patient with me (thanks guys)! and that helps balance things out.  Have you considered using a different group for feedback?

[Brayon]

6 minutes ago, CassieQ said:

 Have you considered using a different group for feedback?

That was a "one and done" type of thing. I've not gone back into a discussion of my work unless it's with someone I trust.

[Kitt]

On 4/13/2018 at 8:07 AM, Mikiesboy said:

Wow ... that is horrible!  When i read or edit content for people...i'll give my best feedback/suggestions... but i always make sure that the author knows.. it is a suggestion...i'm not offended or upset if you choose not to use it. It is their voice, their story. i am there to help, offer some ideas and insight..  I'm sorry that happened, wow.

I'm the "grumpy grammar gremlin" on Bhoppers team, but I try to be nice even when stomping on a major mistake. The goal here is to make the piece enjoyable and need as little rewrite as possible should an author ever look to publish (as Cia and Mann have done).

 

It's my job to make it as grammatically correct as possible, not to spoil the writing process for an author. I always tell them any content change I suggest to improve the flow is just that, A SUGGESTION.

[Pmsingtiger]

It’s impossible to fix my grammar errors without a lot of cussing and asking me if English is my second language. 😂😂😂

[Kitt]

9 hours ago, Pmsingtiger said:

It’s impossible to fix my grammar errors without a lot of cussing and asking me if English is my second language. 😂😂😂

Lol hon, I work with several writers for whom English IS their second language!  

 

Sometimes it gets interesting!

Edited June 4, 2018 by Kitt

[Pmsingtiger]

14 minutes ago, Kitt said:

Lol hon, I work with several writers for whom English IS their second language!  

 

Sometimes it gets interesting!

They probably make way less mistakes than me. 🤔

[AusGlitterati]

Two positives to a negative, isn't that the rule?

"X was good, because..."

"I wasn't keen on Y, I think it could have been improved by..."

"But I liked Z, it..."

I dunno, that's what I was always taught. The criticism sandwich.

 

I've had some scathing reviews of things I've published online before but I didn't really care. At the moment I write for me, nobody else. 

When I sent stuff to my friend she had a lot to say about what I was doing right and wrong, and she was so constructive about it that I happily threw it in the bin and started from scratch, and I like it much more now.

 

I'm sorry they attacked your baby. People need to be aware of the line between helping and hurting someone's feelings. Whether or not they liked it, it's still something the author is attached to and they should respect that. ❤️ 

[mastershakeme]

On 4/3/2018 at 1:03 AM, BHopper2 said:

Last week, I entered into a discussion about my work here on GA, with some fellow writers. Willingly, of course, and described to them my serial story The Half-Elven Warlock. I included what is already publicly known and published on this site, and my outline and worldbuilding documents. All my behind the scene secrets that not even my editing team knows, and other details about my world The Fairie. This discussion was frank, and I knew they would intentionally pick it apart to tell me, where I might be lacking.

 

By the time it was over, I was depressed, angry, boarderline in tears, and sorely tempted to go through GA and remove every trace of my existance online.

 

Beware of Advice, Insight from others, and Feedback from different sources. That's my topic this week.

 

Have you ever recieved advice, feedback, or insight, that made you want to rage quit?

 

Are you for real??? I'm so glad I read this, I thought for sure everyone else was perfect and nobody ever got shit on for their ideas... 

 

I came to this site with an awesome beta, who helped improve my writing quite a bit IMO, but as more people were added to the team, I realized how difficult it was to put up with all these different opinions. I cried, I was embarrassed, I hit from them and missed posts.... 

 

I'm completely on my own now, no betas. I guess it's alright... Nobody hurts my little feelings anymore at least. 🤣 I just don't need any of negativity! That's so unrealistic, but sometimes I think it's ok to put yourself in a little bubble and work on building yourself back up. 

 

Betas and their opinions are brutal...I know I've been in the position where *I'm* the beta and *I* don't like what the writer is doing... They just keep asking though, over and over, and you try oh so gently to talk them out of it... Oh God! So difficult!